Question of actual liability

[neil]

Warhammer,
Waivers do not release anyone from "gross negligence". They don't release anyone from anything really. They are "covenants not to sue" based on assumption of risk. It's idiotic juries that that find innocent people liable and give plaintiffs tons of $$$$ for being stupid!
Neil

disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, although I do dress like one for games with my wife.

 

[jbd]

I've been named in several lawsuits in the past--not in diving but in my past employment. Some I knew about, some I found out after it was done and over with(during military service). I also know of a case of absolute doing everything wrong by the book in which the employer was sued but not the employee who caused the death which led to the lawsuit. I've been through depositions etc and am well aware that right is not always the winner in court. I've also been on jury duty and seen first hand that truth does not always win the day.
In another of my activities I have been informed that all the waivers that people are asked to sign don't really mean that you can't sue ie you have not signed your rights away. The purpose is to get the signer to pause and think at least briefly about the risks involved with what they are about to do.

Although I have been named in several suits I was never found to be responsible or liable for anything because I followed the rules and laws involved with that employment. I did leave that field of work as soon as I could retire because I felt that the liability and personal risks were too high and growing.

 

[mattiedread]

basically releases ski corps from liability. Read the back of a lift ticket one day. Successful suits are few and far between, and usually involve an individual.

I was laying on my broken back, morphine running through me, and a lawyer walked into my hospital room and practically begged me to sue (in this case there was negligence on the ski operator, and it wasn't Colorado). Technically, he was trespassing.

 

[joewr]

Folks,

Armed with a good cup of Peets' coffee (just the House Blend) I reread this thread and came away with two impressions:

(1) jbd, you are a sneaky cuss! You knew the answer to the question and just wanted to see if anyone else did. Nice work!

(2) The rest of you have a strong sense of right and wrong and get very unsettled when the law seems to be taking a strange turn. Our resident Scuba Conscience, Mr. WH, cites the infamous McDonald coffee case--and you do not have to say much more than that to prove my drift. Thank you, my Mississippi maven.

Oh yes, one more thing: case law is not established when cases are settled out of court. You may never hear about a liability case because it was settled out of court. Geez, I hope that does not stir the pot up again.

joewr

 

[jbd]

I didn't know the answer all along. My original question has not been answered. Can anyone show me cases where an instructor or dive operator or divemaster or dive buddy has been successfully sued? All the cases I read about end with the individual diver bearing the responsibility/liability when something goes wrong. I have no problem with that concept.

I also think the now infamous McDonalds coffee case was ludicrous. The ONLY reason that happened is because McDonalds has assets and therefore insurance to protect those assets. Lawyers know this and take full advantage of the situation. Juries go along with it since its not their money. Although I don't like this arrangement I do see a silver lining for us divers. When it comes to equipment we get good stuff since no manufacturer wants to pay the liability that would result from shoddy stuff. I think this is especially true of regulators and tanks.

I would have put in some of those cool smilie things that this board is capable of to indicate that my comments are all in the spirit of lively discussion but alas I haven't that many computer skills.

 

[joewr]

jdb,

I was actually somewhat serious when I wrote that my son was too expensive to use; but I will see if he has some time (the actual constraint) to see if there is any case law. I will also ask a lawyer friend who is a diver. However, note also that I wrote that cases settled out of court do not create case law. It is very likely that most of the cases you are interested in have been settled out of court. I believe the majority of civil cases are.

Somewhere I learned (I guess that is the correct verb to use.) that two things motivate people when it comes to money: greed and fear.

Dive shops and equipment companies want to make money (As they should.); that is "greed".

Dive shops and equipment companies do not want to be sued (Whether they lose or not, it costs them legal fees, etc.); that is "fear". Your example about tanks, etc. is right on the mark! Altruism only goes so far when you gotta make a buck.

While our civil liability laws may cause some very strange judgements--e.g., the hot coffee one--overall, the kind of "fear" they generate has resulted in a fairly orderly society. Sure, it needs to be fixed here and there, but would you rather be in Bosnia? Or Rwanda? Or Texas (Oops, that is the USA.)?

Have you guys ever noticed how many parentheses I use? I wonder if that is a disease..............(?)

Joewr, parenthetically speaking....

 

[jbd]

I gave up coffee some months back; I would have spilled it on myself when I read your Texas quip.

If there is a fee for research send it to Iguana Don!!(that ought to make our scaly friend come out of hiding)

I was also hoping that some of our international friends would come out of hiding(you know; keraluca and the one and only,The Thunder from Down Under The Gasman)

(parenthetically yours)

jbd

 

[BetterLateThannever]

At lease in Texas; when we flip the switch the lights come on! LOL

 

[joewr]

BLT (not the sandwich),

We are painfully aware of that!

Joewr (sitting in my darkened house,trying to save energy)

 

[joewr]

Anybody heard from Don? I hate to be the one people depend on for controversy--he is the master...

Have you Tejanos done something evil to him?

Joewr (Still in the dark--and we need no comments on that!)