Purpose of DIR diving style

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Carribeandiver:
I am diving a 30# singles wing. Halcyon Eclipse with a 6# SS plate. I do not know if I have a STA or not, I do not think so, and I have two cam straps. The BP/W was purchased through a shop already put together.
One thought is whether the LDS can be of assistance. Do they have access to a pool where they do their OW training? If so, could you arrange to get together with an Instructor from the shop to get an ‘up close and personal’ evaluation of your set-up, and your finning techniques (see comment, below)?

Carribeandiver:
I am diving in a wetsuit. I have made a few dives with an AL80 and a few with LP77s. I carry no additional weight. I am 5'8", 185#. I have jets and XS Scuba Power fins. I mostly use the Power fins.
I am impressed that you need no additional weight even when diving an AL80. Good for you. One question that comes up, given your description, is whether you have tested your buoyancy and trim with different (less negative) fins? I dive Jets with my drysuit, because I am somewhat ‘feet light’ then. But, I use Mares Quattros when diving wet, single (HP steel 120) tank, and that works great for me. I can achieve relatively good horizontal positioning and trim. The Jets are a bit negative for my tastes with a 3mm and a single tank. If you were to use a less negative fin, would your overall bouyancy change in the direction of needing a small amount of weight, which you might add in a higher position? As DIR-Atlanta mentioned:

DIR-Atlanta:
The placement of the weight is almost as important as the amount of weight.
And that is a critical point to keep in mind.

Carribeandiver:
It seems much more difficult to fine tune the amount of inflation necessary to be neutral. I am always adding or subtracting and I know that isnt right.
It is also possible that your finning techniques, combined with a ‘foot low’ orientation associated with your weight (fins) and lift distribution, may contribute to the yo-yo effect you describe. If you end up with your feet lower, your finning may be directing at least part of the thrust / propulsion downward, thereby providing lift that otherwise would come from the wing. While you are using your fins, you adjust (decrease) the air in your wing to reflect the combination of lift from the wing and upward movement from finning. When stop finning for a moment, you start to sink, and add air to compensate. Then, when you start finning again, you rise (your kicks are pushing you upward), and feel the need to dump air to compensate.

Carribeandiver:
I dont know if the harness is loose or not. I have tightened it up and it doesnt feel loose but there is some play when I am underwater; although, not very much.
As others have mentioned, the harness should be snug – not uncomfortable but certainly snug. In fact, I keep mine tight enough that I have to really work to get my arms / shoulders into it on the surface (and out of it after a dive). You haven’t mentioned how snug your crotch strap is, so it is also possible that your rig rides somewhat high on your body, exacerbating the issue of your feet wanting to drop, while your upper body gets the ‘benefit’ of the lift in the wing.

Carribeandiver:
And I have tightened the cam straps as much as I can.
From your response about the Eclipse, you apparently have a STA (with the cam bands running through it) attached to the BP, so your description of the tank feeling loose in the water is perplexing, beyond the possibility that the harness is simply a bit on the loose side. It certainly should not feel like that in the water.

Carribeandiver:
I will readily admit that the equipment is not the problem here but it is the diver's lack of skill. Although, it is possible that improper fitting gear or improper weight distribution or amount can compound the problem.
Yes, that may well contribute. You are being very forthcoming in not trying to ‘blame’ the equipment. But, in fairness to you, part of the process of optimizing trim and buoyancy necessarily involves tweaking your equipment.
Based on your comments about your previous experiences, it appears that you recognize when you are able to fine tune your buoyancy using your breathing. That should be the case with a properly configured BP/W as well.

Diver0001:
I think you're going to need to get someone to look at you in the water.
I agree with Diver0001’s sentiment here. We can throw out a lot of ‘what ifs’, but these are really just for you to think about. Having someone familiar with BP/W rigs get in the water with you will ultimately be most helpful. As I said in my original post, there is inherent danger here in the remote approach to diagnosis, so please take these comments as thoughts only to be considered and possibly ruled out. Nonetheless, we will, of course, send you an invoice for our consultation fee.:D
 
Carribeandiver:
I carry no additional weight.

Okay, scratch everything I wrote above. I don't know what you should do, I don't do the whole warm-water thing with negligible weight distribution...

I'm pretty surprised the steel tanks and steel backplate don't fix the problem for you though, and I'm suspecting that this is the kind of thing best fixed in video review (i.e. in a DIRF class) so you can see what you're doing underwater...
 
I can understand this post because I nearly made one like it but ....

lamont:
to fix head-up / feet down trim:

1. try taking off weight off your weightbelt if you are overweighted
he doesn't have one

2. take weight off your weightbelt and move it to a steel backplate if you're diving an aluminum one

He doesn't have one

3. take weight off your weightbelt and move it to a steel tank
He doesn't have one.

4. take weight off your weightbelt and move it to a weighted STA
He doesn't have one.

5. take weight off your weightbelt and move it to tank weights if you have to
He doesn't have one

6. adjust your weightbelt so that your weights are more to the front of your torso than the back (when standing)
He doesn't have one.

7. Dropping your head down and bending your knees at an angle should actually help to fix head-up trim. The prescription for head-down trim is to keep your head up, arch your back and extend your legs (and both of these postures together form a 'CG drill' if you switch between them).
He's struggling with basic skills so this is not the moment to talk to him about oversteer and understeer.

As an added bonus adding more weight to your tank/backplate will reduce the tendency of the wing to tip you face-down in the water.
My first impression was that he was either overweighted or that his wing was too big. if you eliminate these two things (because neither would apear to be true) then what would you suggest...

Fundamentally if you've got a bladder up high on your torso and weights around your waist with everything else being roughly neutral the bladder is going to try to go up and the weights are going to try to drop and you're going to wind up horizontal. You have to fix the distribution of your weights.
see above.

R..
 
Here comes more internet advice!
#1 It could be that you're underweighted. When I started diving twins I had a hell of a time getting horizontal and I kept yo-yoing about, added five pounds between the tanks and it made a huge difference. I could still get down and stay down with only a small amount of weight but doing anything was a realy pain in the ***. Try addind a few pounds to the cam straps.

#2 Water gives terrible feed back, you legs are most likely not where you think they are (unless you've been watching them). Feel free to look behind you and see where they are or get a friend to film/photograph you.

#3 Tighten up that harness, you shouldn't be able to get more than three fingers flat against your chest underneath the shoulder straps

#4 Check the nuts holding your STA on. They're crafty little buggers and like to loosen themselves up every so often, if they come loose your tank will feel like it's flopping about which is one of the most irritating things in the world.

#5 Find somebody who knows what they're doing and get help from them, not the internet. Not always an option but it's definately the best way, chances are you're not noticing things that they will.

Good Luck
 
Diver0001:
I can understand this post because I nearly made one like it but ....

see post #12. i left the previous post there because i figured it might help out someone else...
 
CD didn't you say in another post that you just got this BP&W and then shortly after did fundies....

How many dives do you have with this rig? How many outside of the class?
 
Colliam7:
One thought is whether the LDS can be of assistance. Do they have access to a pool where they do their OW training? If so, could you arrange to get together with an Instructor from the shop to get an ‘up close and personal’ evaluation of your set-up, and your finning techniques?
Part of his problem is that he doesn't have anyone in his area who really knows anything about this (not even other divers). And regarding the idea of asking a local Instructor - these are the same folks that put 10-15 lbs of lead on their OW students in the pool, to keep them on the bottom while they do their skills. In my experience, most Instructors wouldn't have a clue how to diagnose a problem like this, because they simply don't have that good a working knowledge of the mechanics that are involved. There are exceptions of course, but they are rare. Given that Carribeandiver couldn't even find a local shop to help him with the purchase of a BP/W, I'd be surprised if he could find one to help him trim it out now that he has one.

I agree with you that diagnosing the problem long distance is difficult, but at present that is about the only option that is available to him.

Colliam7:
I am impressed that you need no additional weight even when diving an AL80.
That's not so unusual with BP/W. My warm water setup consists of a 3mm suit, an aluminum backplate, weighted STA, and Jetfins. I need no additional weight when diving an AL80 in salt water. This is very easy to trim out (even with the negative Jets), because most of the weight is above my waist.
 
Ben_ca:
CD didn't you say in another post that you just got this BP&W and then shortly after did fundies....

How many dives do you have with this rig? How many outside of the class?
Yes, that is true. I got all of the new gear within a week of the fundies class. The harness was very loose for my first fundies dive. I had to fight very hard not to roll over on my back and the tank shifted during the whole dive.
I got no assistance in fitting the rig, got no assistance in working on buoyancy and trim and that was my complaint about the fundies class. The only other classmate was cave certified and was taking fundies for at least his second time to fine tune things.
Since the class (end Feb) I have only done practice dives in the Florida Springs or in a swimming pool. (Except I did take a Rescue class one weekend where I had the chance to practice skills although that was not officially practice dives for my ultimate objective of achieving buoyancy and trim) Counting pool and spring dives, the total is 14.

Colliam7, I did ask the advice of a tech diver at the LDS where I use the pool. He watched me and said I looked fine and didnt know what I was upset about.
 
I agree with what's been said above. Sounds like your harness may be too loose. The solution to that is to either tighten the shoulder straps (moves plate upwards) or tighten the crotch strap. Or a little bit of both; remember it's a 3 point system This was one nugget of info during my fundies class that was an "a ha!" moment.

This might be helpful, if you haven't seen it already:

http://www.baue.org/faq/backplate_sizing_inline_images.php


I also agree that water provides terrible sensory feedback in terms of trim and leg positioning. One thing you might try in the pool is getting in trim and neutrally bouyant (as best it feels to you) and then slowly bring yourself down to the bottom (gasp the horror!). If your knees hit first, then you're head up. Ideally, I think you want your groin area to hit first. Of course, do this in the flat part of the pool :P
 
Carribeandiver:
Yes, that is true. I got all of the new gear within a week of the fundies class. The harness was very loose for my first fundies dive. I had to fight very hard not to roll over on my back and the tank shifted during the whole dive.
I got no assistance in fitting the rig, got no assistance in working on buoyancy and trim and that was my complaint about the fundies class. The only other classmate was cave certified and was taking fundies for at least his second time to fine tune things.
Since the class (end Feb) I have only done practice dives in the Florida Springs or in a swimming pool. (Except I did take a Rescue class one weekend where I had the chance to practice skills although that was not officially practice dives for my ultimate objective of achieving buoyancy and trim) Counting pool and spring dives, the total is 14.

Colliam7, I did ask the advice of a tech diver at the LDS where I use the pool. He watched me and said I looked fine and didnt know what I was upset about.

So you basically had 1 or 2 dives before fundies in a BP&W is that right? How many dives before Fundies? And post fundies you had 14?

I say you are still struggling with the basics... just relax and dive... You are trying too hard...too much internet diving will screw you up.
 

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