Purchasing an Oxygen kit and where to get O2

[Thalassamania]

I agree;

Everyone is arguing over this unecessarily.

I was taught to ask the person to if they would like to take the oxygen, advising them that you are trained to administer oxygen and that this may help their condition until help arrives and allow them to hold the mask. Once given O2 they should immediately be sent to an emergency room for an evaluation as well as calling DAN.

If they are unconsious you start CPR, and use the bag if you can (It will be a tough challenge to hold the bag with one person) otherwise just CPR until help arrives.

Any amount given should help the situation. Obviously give the 15 liters per minute with the highest concentration method possible for as long as possible. Bag, Mask, demand valve etc.

Yep, you do the best you can with what you've got. If you're going to stand around and let concerns over lawsuits keep you from administering oxygen to a injured diver, I won't dive with you and I don't even think I even want to know you.

 

[DaFireMedic]

Yep, you do the best you can with what you've got. If you're going to stand around and let concerns over lawsuits keep you from administering oxygen to a injured diver, I won't dive with you and I don't even think I even want to know you.

I wholeheartedly agree. If you stay within your training and make a good faith effort to do the best you can, the chances of being sued at all are extremely slim, much less being sued successfully, and I am in a profession that is exposed to lawsuits. Most lawyers won't waste their time on a lawsuit that they know they are unlikely to win when there is so much high percentage litigation floating around out there.

That being said, you have an ethical duty as a dive buddy to do everything within your training to help your fellow diver in distress.

 

[muddiver]

I did not find anything on the bag valve mask with supplemental oxygen, or the manually triggered ventilator, but logic tells me they also approach 100%.

A BVM with supplamental oxygen, per the DAN Advanced Oxygen First Aid for SCUBA Diving Injuries manual, will get you 90% to 100%.

 

[muddiver]

also, good summaritan law doesnt apply to Oxygen delivery as it is considered an invasive medical action. CPR, and basic First aid is all that is covered. If you cause complications due to inferior than medical grade O2, you could realistically be held liable for any harm caused by the impurities. I would want to be up to par on all counts. We fill all our personal bottles from inspected tanks, and are covered via our medical control for such Oxygen delivery, but are not covered under good summaritan outside of CPR or basic first Aid and only when we are off duty. If you are Paid to perform EMS procedures, you are not covered under good summaritan. I am not familiar with Dan's O2 classification to what is/is not covered under good summaritan.

Soooo..

Man colapses at work and turns blue and one of the other employees gets the oxygen kit (free flow mask only) and puts it on the casualty. That employee is now negligent per your interpertation of California law, right?

 

[DaFireMedic]

Soooo..

Man colapses at work and turns blue and one of the other employees gets the oxygen kit (free flow mask only) and puts it on the casualty. That employee is now negligent per your interpertation of California law, right?

Possibly, if that employee knowingly grabs a tank of welding oxygen and administers it to the victim, causing his condition to worsen. I think thats the point Hollywood703 was trying to make.

 

[Thalassamania]

I know of situations in which a diver was administered welding oxygen through a mask made from a styrofoam cup after exhausting the E bottle. The diver lived, with some residual damage, and did not sue ... he'd likely have been dead otherwise. And yes ... I wholeheartedly support that decision and would do the same myself if faced with the problem.

 

[DaFireMedic]

I know of situations in which a diver was administered welding oxygen through a mask made from a styrofoam cup after exhausting the E bottle. The diver lived, with some residual damage, and did not sue ... he'd likely have been dead otherwise. And yes ... I wholeheartedly support that decision and would do the same myself if faced with the problem.

I agree....so would I. Sounds like he did a good job with what he had. As I mentioned before in another post, sometimes the life safety issue may outweigh the potential trouble someone may cause you later for it. Once again, I don't think we disagree here.

It is a matter of risk vs. gain. My point is that filling ones O2 kit with industrial grade oxygen is not necessary and adds an increased risk of introducing toxins into the already weakened system of the injured diver. Sure, it might be fine, but I would rather stack the odds further in my favor by using oxygen that has met the FDA requirements regarding filling and handling. You made a similar statement with regards to oxygen percentages. I will not fill my oxygen kit with anything less than medical grade oxygen. My life or that of my buddy are too important. The risk may be small, but its an unnecessary risk.

Once the bottle runs out, the balance of risk vs. gain changes, and just like the diver you mentioned I will take whatever I can get.

 

[Thalassamania]

I agree....so would I. Sounds like he did a good job with what he had. As I mentioned before in another post, sometimes the life safety issue may outweigh the potential trouble someone may cause you later for it. Once again, I don't think we disagree here.

It is a matter of risk vs. gain. My point is that filling ones O2 kit with industrial grade oxygen is not necessary and adds an increased risk of introducing toxins into the already weakened system of the injured diver. Sure, it might be fine, but I would rather stack the odds further in my favor by using oxygen that has met the FDA requirements regarding filling and handling. You made a similar statement with regards to oxygen percentages. I will not fill my oxygen kit with anything less than medical grade oxygen. My life or that of my buddy are too important. The risk may be small, but its an unnecessary risk.

Once the bottle runs out, the balance of risk vs. gain changes, and just like the diver you mentioned I will take whatever I can get.

We agree: always do the best that you can, but don't be hamstrung by having to compromise, innovate or adapt.

 

[muddiver]

Possibly, if that employee knowingly grabs a tank of welding oxygen and administers it to the victim, causing his condition to worsen. I think thats the point Hollywood703 was trying to make.

What my point is, there are little green boxes in the buildings at teh agency that I work for with flip tops with D or E size cylinders in them. The kit has a standard plastic oxygen mask attached to a "one flow fits all" regulator on the cylinder. They are pretty standard in industrial facilities and most of the employees know that they are available to provide for other sick employees.

If it is so "illegal" to administer oxygen as a lay person or first responder and only "licensed" professional emergency medical personnel can administer oxygen, then why do all the industrial job sites I have been on have these oxygen kits?

 

[DaFireMedic]

What my point is, there are little green boxes in the buildings at teh agency that I work for with flip tops with D or E size cylinders in them. The kit has a standard plastic oxygen mask attached to a "one flow fits all" regulator on the cylinder. They are pretty standard in industrial facilities and most of the employees know that they are available to provide for other sick employees.

If it is so "illegal" to administer oxygen as a lay person or first responder and only "licensed" professional emergency medical personnel can administer oxygen, then why do all the industrial job sites I have been on have these oxygen kits?

I see what you are saying. I think I remember seeing one of these at a chemical manufacturing plant in our district. I just called the director of EMS in our county and posed the question to her. She said that they are required to have first responder trained personnel on site in order to use them, otherwise they would fall outside the good samaritan laws and could fall into trouble. First responders can administer emergency supplemental oxygen until the point that on duty EMS personnel arrive. But she also said that while not technically "legal" for the layperson to administer emergency oxygen, it is unlikely that any action would be pursued against someone acting in good faith.

I also posed the question of off duty paramedics and EMT's administering emergency oxygen. She said that when they are off duty, it falls back to the protocols governing first responders, and that they can administer oxygen up until the point that on duty EMS personnel arrive, at which point they must relinquish care.

Keep in mind that this is for the state of California, and may not be the case in other states. And as has been pointed out, the higher law of life safety may outweigh the slight yet possible legal troubles.

EDIT: I forgot to mention one more thing. I also asked her about the Red Cross oxygen administration classes for the workplace. She said that she would follow up on exactly where that fits in and let me know. I am unfamiliar with it, but it may fall into that first responders category as well.