PSAI Narcosis Management course - 73m on air

[Kevrumbo]

Perhaps if you'd tried the course under those benign, controlled conditions you'd have known better than to plan an air dive to 80m in a storm as you did.

Or did you plan it? Never quite answered that question about whether and to what degree this was planned. How about this: why the Hell were you kicking into the current at 80m on air when you had a DPV with you? Just wanted to see how it felt?

Short reply . . .YEAH! Planned dive was a quick scooter descent to 90m for a few minutes, and then multi-level profile up with most of the time spent at 18m, with O2 deco at 6m as needed. Total Dive Time was 50min, with deco obligation cleared before 12m (per Petrel Computer on 30/85 GF), but I did a few minutes on O2 at 6m anyway for a cleaner inert N2 purge. Skipped the next repetitive dives of the diveboat's itinerary and called it a day. . .

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Short reply . . .YEAH! Planned dive was a quick scooter descent to 90m for a few minutes, and then multi-level profile up with most of the time spent at 18m, with O2 deco at 6m as needed. Total Dive Time was 50min, with deco obligation cleared before 12m (per Petrel Computer on 30/85 GF), but I did a few minutes on O2 at 6m anyway for a cleaner inert N2 purge. Skipped the next repetitive dives of the diveboat's itinerary and called it a day. . .

Fair enough, far be it from me to critique the idea of preparing yourself and seeing what works and what doesn't. Only thing I don't see is the relevance of your experience to someone considering the PSAI NM course's final progression. It's not clear why you posted your experience here, but my reading was "look boys & girls, doing air way past 200' can be seriously bad stuff anytime you stray from the artificial environment of the PSAI course, so it's not really useful." If I've misinterpreted your meaning, you've got nothing to blame but your own cryptic approach.

Yes, the kind of highly controlled pop down and then back up to 73m it involves isn't license to go do deep air anywhere to any depth under any conditions. But does that mean it's not a valuable option if it's being considered as a starting point by someone looking to extend their END limits (or simply confirm where they want to draw the line)? It's like the PADI "deep diver" speciality...for people comfortable with really high ENDs and pO2s Just training wheels...

 

[Kevrumbo]

Fair enough, far be it from me to critique the idea of preparing yourself and seeing what works and what doesn't. Only thing I don't see is the relevance of your experience to someone considering the PSAI NM course's final progression. It's not clear why you posted your experience here, but my reading was "look boys & girls, doing air way past 200' can be seriously bad stuff anytime you stray from the artificial environment of the PSAI course, so it's not really useful." If I've misinterpreted your meaning, you've got nothing to blame but your own cryptic approach.

Yes, the kind of highly controlled pop down and then back up to 73m it involves isn't license to go do deep air anywhere to any depth under any conditions. But does that mean it's not a valuable option if it's being considered as a starting point by someone looking to extend their END limits (or simply confirm where they want to draw the line)? It's like the PADI "deep diver" speciality...for people comfortable with really high ENDs and pO2s Just training wheels...

That's precisely the point:

And so. . . the objective lesson to be taken from this is that if you think you have the ability to confidently dive only to 73m on Deep Air, in benign clear warm water tropical no-current static conditions next to a descent/ascent upline, then the PSAI Narcosis Management Class is a worthwhile applicable course to undertake. . .

-In other words & conversely, IMO there is no useful practical application (other than controlled attempts at depth record setting???) for this class outside its own very limited benign dive conditions. Any physical exertion at that depth on Air will result in immediate debilitating narcosis and the spiraling effects of CO2 Retention ultimately leading to unconsciousness and/or Ox-tox seizures.

 

[rddvet]

And it sounds like you should refrain from such an activity.

I know there was some sarcasm there but probably isn't a bad suggestion. In technical diving there is always risk, but we try to minimize it as much as possible. Knowing that what I can't wrap my head around is if you know the severe conditions of the site, why would you increase your risk by adding air that deep to the equation? It's either by mistake, stupidity, or ego. I'd like to hope its by mistake.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I know there was some sarcasm there but probably isn't a bad suggestion. In technical diving there is always risk, but we try to minimize it as much as possible. Knowing that what I can't wrap my head around is if you know the severe conditions of the site, why would you increase your risk by adding air that deep to the equation? It's either by mistake, stupidity, or ego. I'd like to hope its by mistake.

You prepare to the best of your KSA (Knowledge, Skill & Ability), and Experience. The Scooter was the most invaluable tool in those conditions and I always take it on an Oil Rig dive.

(Sometimes you step up to the plate expecting & looking for that late breaking Slider on the outside corner to hit --and you get instead the "High Hard One" inside Fastball thrown at your chin. . . Get back up, stand in the batter's box, finish the at-bat, don't quit the Game. You Live and Learn.)

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Any physical exertion at that depth on Air will result in immediate debilitating narcosis and the spiraling effects of CO2 Retention ultimately leading to unconsciousness and/or Ox-tox seizures.

Uh, no. You had a bad day doing stupid under truly suboptimal conditions, and the PSAI course under discussion is at the opposite end of the scale. Somewhere between the two are lots of air dives executed in the 70-80m range that involved a Hell of a lot more than just dropping down a line and coming back up; I should know, I've done more than a few of them myself.

That said, if I have my CCR and a nice dil bottle of 10/50 handy, it's a much better tool for that kind of diving unless I'm interested in something akin to a vintage diving dive experience.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Uh, no. You had a bad day doing stupid under truly suboptimal conditions, and the PSAI course under discussion is at the opposite end of the scale. Somewhere between the two are lots of air dives executed in the 70-80m range that involved a Hell of a lot more than just dropping down a line and coming back up; I should know, I've done more than a few of them myself.

That said, if I have my CCR and a nice dil bottle of 10/50 handy, it's a much better tool for that kind of diving unless I'm interested in something akin to a vintage diving dive experience.

Uh . . Then you Sir, (or the Oriiginal Poster Tortuga68) show how this class definitively teaches how to recognize those factors real-time which can cause what you euphemistically minimize & derisively dismiss as "just a bad day doing stupid scat" and how to recover or abort --otherwise Hannibal, you're just a "hind sight hack" & uninformed revisionist troll with your own flippant non-applicable opinions, anecdotes and useless rhetoric like everyone else here in rebuttal. . .

---------- Post added September 25th, 2014 at 03:31 PM ----------

OP Recitation:

I recently took this course at Capt'n Gregg's in the Philippines with my instructor & friend Mark Cox, ad thought I'd share my experiences and thoughts with you.

Firstly, I don't want this to turn into a deep ar-bashing thread. This is a deep air course, if deep air isn't for you then obviously you wouldn't do it. However if anyone has any questions or constructive criticisms I'll try to address them.

I should also say that I make this post as a student of the course - I have no affiliation with or debt to PSAI.

The course, which was conceived by Hal Watts, deep air record diver, was originally taught at 40 Fathom (73m) Grotto in Florida. It's only taught by a limited number of highly qualified/trained instructors - I understand Capt'n Gregg's is the first IDC outside of the USA.

The course is NOT about encouraging people to dive deep air, and does not 'certify' people to dive to the depths involved; rather the focus is on teaching skills to allow you to safely plan deep dives & manage the narcotic effects - whether using air, trimix or whatever.

There are 6 levels to the course (although you need explicit permission from PSAI headquarters to progress to level 6), which cover dives to 30, 40, 46, 55, 61 and 73 metres. In order to progress to the next level, you must complete the previous level whilst demonstrating proficiency and completing the skills and checks required, before being given the okay to progress to the next level. Multiple dives to each depth can be and usually are required.

My previous training includes Advanced Nitrox & Decompression Preocedures (TDI) and Rescue (PADI).

All course dives are done using a descent/ascent line, with a safety bottle (100% oxygen) suspended at 6m, accompanied by your instructor at all times, and - in the case of the level 4-6 dives (55, 61 and 73m), a second PSAI instructor (and in my case, a support diver at 12m).

Back gas was always air, in doubles, with either 1 or 2 stages of 50% and 100% respectively, depending on target depth.

The 'core' of the course is a PSAI slate on which certain information is recorded before and during the dive, such as:

- Starting tank pressure
- Target depth
- Descent pressure
- Level off depth
- First stop depth
- Depth at 4 minutes dive time
- Pressure at 6 minutes (self and buddy)
- Pressure check at every subsequent 2 minutes of bottom time
- Turn pressure (minimum)
- Object identification and compass heading
- 1 minute to ascent time signal
- Ascent pressure
- First stop pressure

etc etc - the idea being to give you a set of tasks to maintain your awareness and monitor depth, time and tank pressure

Anyway, enough about the details and on to what I thought...

It was great! Having done deco dives previously to 45-65m, I felt much more in control and aware of my situation. Certainly I was narc'd, but able to cope with the requirements of a technical dive much more easily using the skills I learned.

I'd definitely encourage anyone who is interested in deep diving to try this course(you can do as many or as few levels as you are comfortable with). I feel like a much better and safer diver as a result.

No notes or mention above addressing this most important and potentially deadly caveat which follows below:

Deep Air with increased Gas Density, Flow Viscosity & Work-of-Breathing; then throw in Physical Exertion or a Stress Condition, resulting in overbreathing the regulator (also can result from just breathing a malfunctioning "wet regulator") --all leading to the Vicious Cycle of CO2 Retention and sudden Narcosis. Can result in severe cognitive impairment at depth or worst case stupor and ultimately unconsciousness. . .

Taken from Undersea Biomedical Research, Vol 5, No. 4 December 1978 Hesser, Fagraeus, and Adolfson:

Studies on the narcotic action of various gases have shown that the ratio of narcotic or anesthetic potency of CO2 and N20 approximates 4:1, and that of N2O and N2 30:1. From these figures it can be calculated that CO2 has at least 120 times the narcotic potency of nitrogen. Our data would suggest that the narcotic potency of CO2 is even greater, i.e., several hundred times as great as that of nitrogen." (emphasis added).

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I can pretty much let you speak for yourself at this point. I'll leave this thread to molder with one last point: contrary to what you're saying, a LOT of real, working diving (wreck and otherwise) has occured on air right around 73m or so. That you decided to do something less than intelligent to see what would happen doesn't change the fact that plenty of divers have had (and still have) no issues diving air at the depth you were at, in conditions as bad or worse...and without a DPV.

Whether PSAI's course prepares you for that sort of thing (it doesn't) or simply gives you a taste of some of the basic risks involved, is a separate question from whether air is a viable gas for dives in the 70-80m range where someone actually wants to accomplish something more than a bounce "record" (not that these depths are within 200' of a record) in the tropics. I read you as saying 'man, if I had a problem the whole concept's inherently flawed unless you're doing what's covered in the class and nothing more!' That's bunk.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I can pretty much let you speak for yourself at this point. I'll leave this thread to molder with one last point: contrary to what you're saying, a LOT of real, working diving (wreck and otherwise) has occurred on air right around 73m or so. That you decided to do something less than intelligent to see what would happen doesn't change the fact that plenty of divers have had (and still have) no issues diving air at the depth you were at, in conditions as bad or worse...and without a DPV..

Somewhat refuting your claim Dr. Lecter, the fact is quite A LOT of real non-commercial/non-military & infamous recreational technical diving deaths while using Deep Air HAVE occurred (from PfcAJ's compiled list):

Heywood Day, 140', 1962
Ron Hughes, 150', 1963
Paul Giancontere, 200', 1965
Brend Joost, 160', 1968
Stephen Alexander, 210', 1969
Pat McIntree, 150', 1969
Brett Naisbet, 150', 1969
Wayne Dillon, 210', 1969
Francis Wilson, 160', 1969
Paul Bartlett, 140', 1970
Robert Causey, 180', 1970
Bud Sims, 300', 1970
Fred Schmidt, 150', 1970
Archie Forfar 480' 1971
Anne Gunderson 480' 1971
John Cruselle, 180', 1971
Frank Martz, 300', 1971
Robert Vaughn, 200', 1971
Doug Deurloo, 150', 1971
Ray Elman, 260', 1972
Alex Nesbitt, 200', 1972
Thomas Cranmer, 200', 1972
Paul Dietrich, 240', 1972
Dan Cole, 220', 1972
Rich Broman, 140', 1972
Stephen Millott, 250', 1973
Christine Millott, 250', 1973
John Bockerman, 250', 1973
Gordon Roberts, 250', 1973
William Smith, 200', 1973
Melvan Tillman, 150', 1973
James Waddington, 140', 1973
Robert Wyatt, 210', 1973
Deane Valentine, 190', 1973
George Van de Nord, 190', 1973
Paul Reinholm, 170', 1974
Unidentified, 200', 1974
Dana Turner, 290', 1974
Charles Barone, 180', 1975
Daniel Howard, 180', 1975
Steve Herman, 180', 1975
Mike Goddard, 170', 1976
Arthur Williamson, 140', 1976
Sven Sorenson, 140', 1976
William Wood, 180', 1978
Carl Miles, 180', 1978
Terry Collins, 260', 1981
James Bentz, 260', 1981
Bill McFadden, 200', 1988
William Cronin, 140', 1988
Kenny Potts, 200', 1990
Lloyd Morrison, 250', 1990
Billy Liiard, 180', 1991
Ormsby, John 230' 1985
Feldman, Steve 235' 1991
Soellner, Ed 145' 1992
Rouse, Jr, Chris 235' 1992
Rouse, Sr Chris 235' 1992
Santulli, Robert 220 1992
Sheck Exley 400 ead 1994
Nick Commoglio 450
Rob Palmer 396 1997
Rob Parker 250 1997
Ed Suarez 280 1994
Carl Sutton 280
Legare Hole 240
Andy Bader 220
Aron Arvidson 311 1995
Dennis Sirvet 110 meters
Douglas Missavage 191 1997

Whether PSAI's course prepares you for that sort of thing (it doesn't) or simply gives you a taste of some of the basic risks involved, is a separate question from whether air is a viable gas for dives in the 70-80m range where someone actually wants to accomplish something more than a bounce "record" (not that these depths are within 200' of a record) in the tropics. I read you as saying 'man, if I had a problem the whole concept's inherently flawed unless you're doing what's covered in the class and nothing more!' That's bunk.

That's analogous to conferring full Open Water Certification to someone just completing a Discover Scuba Diving Session and whose limited experience is by exposure only to those benign shallow diving beginner parameters of the DSD session (". . .simply gives you a taste of some of the basic risks involved", as you would say Dr. Lecter). In this instance and by analogy, the whole concept IS obviously flawed, grossly dangerous AND irresponsibly negligent. . .

 

[The Chairman]

Somewhat refuting your claim Dr. Lecter, the fact is quite A LOT of real non-commercial/non-military & infamous recreational technical diving deaths while using Deep Air HAVE occurred (from PfcAJ's compiled list):

There's a lot of FUDD being preached here: Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt and Deception. Let's put this in perspective, shall we? In over fifty years, they have barely exceeded the Scuba death count here in the Keys for two years.

If you feel uncomfortable with the course: don't take it. Commenting on the efficacy of a course without having taken it is just chest thumping, ego driven drivel. I would much rather read from those who HAVE taken it then to endure the continuing pontifications of those who have not.