Proper hose management when using pony bottles.

[PfcAJ]

It has been several months since this thread was active and I am bringing it from the dead with an update. After some very serious soul searching here is what came of all of this:

Pony bottle will be mounted upside down. It will only have 1 hose coming out of it. That hose has been replaced with a longer hose. That hose will be looped like a U against the pony and will be held with a bungee cord. With a quick pull hose will expand allowing me to breathe off it. Computer was recycled into 2nd scuba setup that I built. Except for computers I now have 2 identical sets of scuba equipment which is awesome because nothing has to be learned twice.

Can you restow the hose by yourself if it gets dislodged? If not, I'd rethink that configuration.

I'm really sorry that you got brutalized by so many folks here... :depressed:

Watch the movie "Blackhawk down" and you'll get a better appreciation for gearing up ... at the beginning, the veteran commandos are saying to a new guy "why are you carrying water? This is a 15 minute operation" ... "why are you wearing body armor on your back? that's just dead weight." etc. etc. etc... and those decisions end up getting everyone killed.

I don't think your setup is unreasonable by any stretch.

Good luck to you and may your bubbles always go up!

Fwiw, its pretty normal to tailor your equipment to the dive (or operation, in the case of the military). Extra stuff can and does get in the way, and a lot of times it makes you slower and can confuse the appropriate response. There's something to be said for replacing extra equipment with diving skill and situational awareness. If you can replace a piece of equipment w/ skill or awareness, I recommend replacing it.

 

[DaleC]

Hey Yarik, this is a discussion board.

On a discussion board, particularly in advanced diving, we put forth our ideas and they sometimes get challenged - if they can stand the test then perhaps they are sound. If they fail the test then perhaps they are not. In this case your ideas are suspect and your reasons for choosing them are as well.
According to YOU:

"...Without a doubt in a normal scenario this is an overkill but I video tape and more than half the time people in my group do not stick around while I am video taping something. My dive buddy is always in sight but flag bearer is not so I constantly have to play catch up to the dive leader."

If that is not what you meant then you need to restate. Your buddies not sticking around is a lack of your buddy skills - you should choose better buddies and not accept that behavior or "up front" make it clear you are solo diving. My interpretation of self-reliance is taking responsibility for every aspect of the dive including buddy behavior. Saying "I'm a part of a buddy team but I don't expect my buddy to stick around" is not taking responsibility.

Videography or photography is not such an odd activity that one needs redundant redundant gear. My friends and I are capable of doing so while slinging single ponies or retaining buddy contact. Again, no excuses.

I have never seen anyone in rec OW, use two redundant air sources. If you were to dive with me and during our pre-dive check you showed me your pony and your spare air I would ask why. If you said you believed in redundant redundancy I would assume the following:

Your gear is prone to failure and you are compensating for that.
You are a very nervous diver
You don't understand basic gas management principles.

If you said you did so because you didn't expect your buddy to stick around I would make it clear that I expect MY buddy to stick around.. but I would sub-consciously be wary that you accept such behavior.

Again, sorry if that offends but it's true.

You seem like a nice young man,
Better someone say that to your VDT on a discussion board than to have them laughing behind your back IRL. I know now you think I'm an A-hole but perhaps one day you may thank me for the social heads up.

I just watched your video. Now do me the same courtesy and watch mine: This is what can be dived at the depths you were in. If you want redundancy, add one pony - that's it:

[video=youtube;EJZA1WYQbdI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJZA1WYQbdI&list=UU5zvhnU0XYpf_cadpYJYkhQ& index=15[/video]

 

[gcarter]

Skip to 8m 40s

Is that MOF?

 

[ermaclob]

i have to agree to some extent with whatDaleC is saying. You dont need 2 redundant air sources. its simply to much stuff to have on you all at one to solve a problem that can be dealt with a lot easier. the spare air is simply useless i my opinion. you could of just gotten a slightly bigger pony.

I will say that from what you started of with you have made a significant improvement with the hose routing and streamlining your rig. however you have to understand that your rig as a degree of complexity to it, and with that complexity comes problems that one might not easily anticipate.

when adding things to your rig you need to access what the benefits your going to get versus the weakness

- Upside down pony... why? what benefit are u going to have doing that? ppl normally do that as a poor choice in protecting the valves on the tanks in over heads, it also makes hoses route strange. and it adds complexity to your rig. im guessing u did it to get the hose is the place u wanted it. not the best way to do it...

- Double redundancy, thats over overkill. it adds more stuff that you dont need underwater, more weight more drag...etc all tho i understand it seems like a good idea to have it you simple dont need it. so you get the very very small benifet of a 3rd air source. tho the down side is you have even more complexity and and clutter.

- bungee U hose, like someone asked can reset the hose on your tank if you pull it out underwater? if you cant this is a legit problem with your setup

so like i said before you have a strange complex setup. have you considered that your buddy also should know how your rig works in case of a problem? i think if you get some random guy on a boat as a buddy he might not really understand how your stuff is set up even after you explain it.

dont get me wrong im all for doing stuff the way you want. and IMO there is no real big out standing issue with the way your set up (other then he possible U hose thing). its just that it not the best problem free way to get the job done.

i went through a similar stage as i got more into diving. i thought about the hole pony thing and did experiments and changes to my rig etc. i ended up coming t my senses and scraped the hole idea, i get my redundany now with doubles and proper gas management. But like i said in the first post i did on this thread the simplest most beneficial way to use the pony is to simply sling it on your side close to your body so it doesn't swing around alot. and that's it. cheap to do, simple, extremely effective, and streamline.

 

[DevonDiver]

...there is no real big out standing issue with the way your set up (other then he possible U hose thing). its just that it not the best problem free way to get the job done.

I agree (assuming no wrecks/caves/entanglement hazard environments), but it does seem ironic given the OP choose to name this thread 'Proper Hose Management'.

Assuming that 'proper' means; functional, streamlined, suited for task, necessary and/or optimal, I'd say that the OP still isn't achieving his original stated goals...

 

[yarik83]

Doing this in reverse:

Thank you for continued constructive criticism but I am a little perplexed about continued references to being a "faster" diver. What is the rush to dive faster? I dive in current so I float or however or fly or whatever you want to call it. Even when I am lake diving or lagoon diving my gear poses no slow down effect that I can think of. Another aspect is concept of dive buddies. I am sure most of you folks dive with your significant other or best friend for ever... not so much in my case. Here is a perfect example: March 26 I am flying to Cozumel. I will be diving 5 days there on a boat with 16 or so other divers. 12 of whom were probably certified in 1978 and think they can dive 80ft palancar gardens dive site in moderate current. Yeah... been to Cozumel multiple times and dove there dozens of times... can you honestly expect me to put my life in hands of a "I can do it" sardine packed dive boat filled with once a year and once in 25 year divers? I certainly won't. And then the 2 divers that actually dive regularly are myself and the dive master so yeah.... his priority is to make sure nobody starts breaking the reef or gets lost in the labyrynth... can't rely on those... especially since most of dive leaders in coz dive with gear that is leaking air out of every nook and crevise so how do you expect me to put my life in his hands?

I do travel with my dive shop but those trips are once a year and I can rely on them. In those cases I know I can rely on our group because I know how they dive, what their set of skills is and how they will react in certain situations since we have been diving together since 2007. But I can't bring them with me everywhere... I hope you understand where I am coming from?!

On out of country trips I bring my spare air only since its easy to pack.
On instabuddy in state diving I bring both redundant air sources because (as in case of weeki wachee dive that happened just a couple of weeks ago) NOT ONE diver got paired up.. they all separated like ants in all different directions looking at stuff. With that sort of talent and without my dedicated dive group ehh... diving with redundant air sources does not seem like a really bad idea now does it?


devondiver


I got 2 bad knees. Skiing accident on one knee where I torn all ligaments and torn-detached ball of joint where it got wrapped around my knee under the skin. 2 surgeries, bolts, screws, plate and ligament restoration and I am almost as good as nnew. My other knee was damaged while in college when knee cap got shattered and fixed up.


Life is not without limitations... for example I can't crouch or run or stand on my knees or crawl on my knees or sit in lotus position or bend either knee far enough back but I do live an active life style so learned to overcome those issues.


My reason for redundant air sources comes from past experiences of questionable instabuddies, equipment failure and being separated from group. I do not want to solo dive but I want to be self reliant if and when necessary.


PfcAJ


Absolutely. That was one of my main concerns. I wanted to be able to restore hose to pony bottle if it gets dislodged. I practiced it in my living room and then during the dive and it worked perfectly both with pony up or down. Either way I am able to restore it to its configuration on land and in water.

 

[DevonDiver]

I got 2 bad knees....

Which is why a slung pony would be of benefit. You could detach it and hand it up before water exit. My knees are pretty shot-up also, along with my back, one wrist and the other hand. That's one of the reasons I dive sidemount now... no more gasping exits. A slung pony would suit your needs.

My reason for redundant air sources comes from past experiences of questionable instabuddies, equipment failure and being separated from group. I do not want to solo dive but I want to be self reliant if and when necessary.

I don't think anyone's questioning the benefits of self-reliance and redundant air. Double redundancy was the issue, I believe. Pony + Spare Air. There's simply no need for it.

If you're absolutely convinced you need more redundancy than the pony alone will provide (gas volume?), then look into other dedicated option; like back-mounted isolated doubles or sidemount.

Redundancy planning has to develop from intelligently understanding the likelihood of reasonable consecutive failures. How many consecutive failures do you need to plan for in the open-water environment at recreational depths/no-stop dives?

One or two failures max. A pony provides for two failures. Double redundant gas would be needed in the event of 3 consecutive failures... (1) your initial regulator failure, followed by (2) failure of the buddy system, followed by (3) failure of your first-resort redundant gas. If you count CESA (emergency ascent) as a resource (it is...as it's taught...a final resort life-saver from any no-stop/rec depth emergency), then you have 4 consecutive failures to account for... because you'd have to be diving in a situation where CESA wasn't available to you.

Intelligent redundancy, based on reasonable consecutive failures, prevents you over-burdening or carry needless resources. There'd be no harm in carry more, except it's understood that any additional complexity does bring negative impacts. Tech and cave divers understand this...and they operate in an environment where all problems must be overcome without recourse to surfacing... a far graver situation than any open-water/no-stop diver will face. The belief that 'more is better' simply does not stand true when issues such as; task loading, diver stress, simplified response, proper weighting, streamlining, reduced entanglement potential, minimizing failure points and proper weighting are considered.

 

[NAM001]

yaric

The more stuff, the more potential problems whether it will be hose routing, stuff entanglement, or failure at depth. Your pony needs a button presure gage only. You wlll use it once when you put the pony on and after that nothing counts. The pony either works or it doesnt. The real discussion should probably be whether or not you should have a octo on the main tank or not and whether the pony valve should be on or not. My father had a phrase about buying insurance. and it was "BEING INSURANCE POOR" . I would guess that you are a hazzard with all the safety measures you have taken.

 

[Peter69_56]

Yaric,
I went through a similar scenario with my tech trainer Rubens from IDC in Portsea. I thought I had done a pretty good job setting up a new wing, with manifolded twin cylinders and 2 sling tanks. Had all the buttons and whistles on to cover all scenarios. Long hose computer and long hose backup computer on second reg. Long HP PG,depth and compass on each sling tank (all held on by occy straps). Emergency alert rig on inflator line and a few more decorations etc etc hanging off the rig. I had also set up my new DIN regs set up the same as I did with a single tank system (hoses up etc).

He came and asked me why for each piece and then proceeded to explain and then remove much of what I had,re-rigged the primary regs, short hoses on the PG for each sling, One PC on left reg acting as gauge only, right PG gone and second computer as gauge on wrist (which I dumped for a trimix computer). All in all I felt naked without my bells and trinkets to some degree but as I knew he was a respected and experienced tech trainer I stuck to the rig setup. After using it for a number of dives and occasionally in very trying conditions with reasonable task loading I have found it to be simple and easy to use. All the things I thought I needed, in all reality would have task loaded me more (as described elsewhere in this thread by others). The hoses are neat and tidy, with minimal excessive gear but reasonable backup.I don't have air available in the slings as backup bottom gas (they are 32% and 60% Nx) but do I need it? I could possibly sling another pony (which I have) but in times of high workloads it would just become more confusing, and as I have twin cylinders I can split them if needed so already have easy redundency.

Try setting and deploying a DSMB whilst breathing from a free flowing deco reg in strong currents, dirty water and vis at near 0 due to mass bubbles, all the while keeping and eye on your buddy, depth & run time (no computer at that time). Just trying to find things is difficult let alone dealing with gas loss, heaps of bubbles and not stuffing up the SMB deployment (which I did). Any more gear with that scenario and the errors just accumulate more.

The KISS principle I believe is much more essential than having a heap of high tech good looking money sucking items all over your body. I don't say this maliciously as I was set up like a walking scuba shop prior to this.

Thanks Rubens,I do appreciate your ruthlessness in cleaning up my setup. I make one exception to his method, and that is I carry a PLB in waterproof container due to being left behind once (left behind schizophrenia/paranoia). I like the idea of the second reg on an occy around my neck, its in an ideal place if the vis is 0 or I am chasing a reg in a hurry, I can near grab it solely with my mouth no hands. The long hose reg is still neat around my neck and easy to deploy if needed.

I don't just accept anything people say with regard to setup or diving, but I do listen and try and nut out why it is suggested and the logic behind it. If the advise is from very experienced and knowledgeable divers, I would be very hesitant to go against what they say without good logical reasoning and significant thought.

I also played with rear mount pony but the sling setup is so much simpler and easy to dump or connect the cylinder (once practiced) and to control it and the associated reg. Try and keep an (saves the weight of manifolds and bands etc when not available overseas). I am now set up to dive single BCD, twin manifold or twin independent, all with sling cylinders if required. I do hope you sort your setup and it does what you need.