Problems with Advanced and Stress/Rescue Class

[acelockco]

I am taking this very personally, and I would have been EXTREMELY happy with a refund. I am pissed because the dive shop owner didn't understand where I was coming from and decided to yell at me rather then listen or try to understand me. I asked for a refund as a store credit so I could purchase a new regulator and take my classes somewhere else. He did not give me a refund or credit.

I personally don't know much about this dive shop, it is the only shop near where I live though. My wife purchased the classes for me as an anniversary gift, which was an amazing gift, but she had no idea about where to take classes and such, she was only trying to do something nice for me.

I was certified in the town where I grew up which is 2-1/2 hours away. If by some chance I do get a refund I will gladly take the class down there. They are NAUI and much more professional and WAY more advanced.

I really wouldn't mind if these books were geared toward 10 year old children, as long as I didn't need to take these classes to get to the next level. I would gladly test out of the class (just like in college) so I could get to the proper level of learning but they don't offer that.

By the way, I have been diving a lot longer then the instructor.

 

[JMcD]

I'm not sure "diving longer than the instructor" is necessarily an indication of the instructor's quality or ability. I'm also not sure how you approached the store, if it was similar in manner to your posts, then I can see how that may have raised their hackles...

It makes sense to me that costs of the materials may need to be absorbed by you if you have written in them, but I can see how the return of course fees, or credit as you have suggested, would be absolutely appropriate if you don't believe you will get out of the course what you desire.

I am a bit intrigued as to how you have assessed that you wont get what you want at this point - Some of my earlier training classes (through a much smaller agency) had very limited "textbook" materials, but provided exceptional training based on how the instructor approached the course. Just a thought - I'm a fan of great reading materials, but it has been my experience that they don't guarantee great learning.

I will readily agree that the style of the SSI materials is not necessarily what everyone would like. I read the NOAA diving manual for recreational reading, so admittedly the SSI style is not really presented in the way I'd love to see. However, having said that, the SSI materials do deliver key information in a way that many individuals can consume it readily. It has been my experience that for students who love all the details, I supplement the written material with answers for their questions and, on rare occassions where people have the interest, there are supplemental materials that can be utilized.


I'm certainly not responsible for SSI's materials, or an "expert" on why they have approached the materials as they have, but I'd suggest that SSI's overall approach is to focus on key, critical information and ensure the student has that down. I will agree that they do not cover everything possible, but what they cover they wish to do so in a clear manner. They provide video materilals for classes because this supplements and aligns with the texts and many people learn well with the integrated "multimedia". I'm not sure this is all "dumbed down". It is keeping to the main and the plain that a diver needs to know at each stage.

Sure there are a number of texts I prefer, but I can prefer a different style and still acknowledge that the SSI materials deliver key information to the majority of the population well.

As for diving with an SSI trained diver - I'd suggest you worry much less about the agency and chat with every potential buddy to understand their expectations, knowledge and experience. I can definitly assert that with SSI's approach that an "Advanced Open Water Diver" requires multiple specialties and a minumum of 24 dives, someone holding an SSI AOW card has a great potential to be a better diver than the great number of "advanced" divers who complete an "advanced course" immediately after completing open water and have an "advanced" card with 9 dives under their belt...

I hope you get your refund and connect with an instructor aligned with what you want to do. I wouldn't condemn the entire agency just because you don't like the reading materials and are not connecting with this instructor...

 

[acelockco]

I am sure you can understand my frustration, and I may have acted out of that frustration. Even if that is the case, I should never have been yelled at by the dive shop owner because of the way I felt.

After this conversation started here I have become even more upset. Everyone seems to suggest that I speak with the actual instructor. Now I am more upset because the dive shop owner doesn't even know who will be teaching the class that is 3 weeks away.

All I ever wanted was a refund or a store credit. I can tell you I will continue be very unhappy if I don't get a refund and am forced to take the class. I can only imagine how the class is going to go if one of the students is really pissed off at the dive shop. I think for the benefit of the dive shop and the class the best decision he can make is to issue a refund.

 

[leabre]

Anyway, it looks as of right now that I will have to take the advanced class unless the owner changes his mind and offers a refund. I only left a deposit on the Stress/Rescue class and am going to have to eat the deposit I guess. We will see if the dive shop owner makes this right or if money is his bottom line as well.

While it certainly sucks, you have just learned a very important truth about the scuba industry: once you hand over money, be it deposits or otherwise, you won't be getting it back and you are damned lucky to even get store credit when a refund is otherwise justifiable. Armed with this knowledge, you'll likely be far more diligent in anything before handing over money.

The scuba industry in general has practices that would outright cause most other shops in other industries to fold. And we allow it. Vote with your money in the future, don't pay for anything that isn't delivered or understood to be what you want. You'll save a lot of money in SCUBA that way and likely be much happier.

PADI materials is written just as lowest-common denominator. NAUI's is better, but GUE/UTD will communicate on the level of a thinking adult. I haven't had experience with any other agencies. I'm NAUI and UTD to the core but have found myself reference PADI materials many times. It is what it is. Most of the time your instructor will not be watered down as the books but if you truly feel that way you shouldn't tkae the class even if you don't get a refund. You won't be doing yourself a favor or anyone else.

Anyway, if you approach the owner defensively and accusationally, he may not be inclined to reason with you. Discuss the matter, your concerns, and what you're expecting to get out of it -- like an adult -- and you can expect to be treated like an adult (agency materials not withstanding). You may have a different outcome.

Just my 2 PSI!

 

[acelockco]

That is my intention after I chill out a bit and let him cool down as well.

 

[Bob DBF]

I feel your pain. Training materials nowadays is written as entertainment rather than as a textbook because the illiterate population produced by schools today. The PADI books are similar, tstormdiver covered the reasons earlier, so don't expect a NAUI book to be a huge difference. The 'remedial' information from earlier OW classes is due to 1. insureing you know it and 2. OW classes now don't cover what they once did.

I just bit the the bullett and did the books and also picked up some 20 year old manuals to read so I wouldn't reinforce my ADD reading the new books. Working with the Instructor was much better and I actually learned a few things, contrary to popular belief, and enjoyed the classes. I got a look at the change in training between now and old school when I started. Its different and may be better for the students now, but I have issues at times.

As for finding older instructors, I'd have a real problem.

Bob
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I may be old but I’m not dead yet.

 

[WeldonDowd]

I'll send you the cost of the "elementary" material if you'll just relax a little and quit acting like such an elitest. I'd hate to be the one who accidentally gives you the wrong change during a transaction or forgets to put a napkin in your drive thru bag. Your not taking an engineering course at MIT your getting another diver cert card, it's supposed to be fun. Be happy that your educated enough to find the material so "sophmore".

 

[ti325v]

It is the INSTRUCTOR not the agency that matters Especially in non pro level courses.....and in the case of drivings equivalent of McDonalds....Where you cannot teach above standards....I will repeat this forever and ever and ever It is the INSTRUCTOR not the agency that matters.... ....I see it EVERYDAY in the local training pool ! 15-20 instructors, 20- 50 students....and I know who will do well in O.W. and who will have a tough time...

 

[acelockco]

kac215 - I don't think I am acting like an elitist in any way, so I don't know where you are coming from. I just want to learn something and not to be treated like a 5th grader.

ti325v - I don't see how the instructor is going to make as much difference as you feel. I understand different people have different training methods and ways of connecting with students and all of that. The problem is that the instructor also learned from SSI so now I really doubt his/her skills. I am guessing that the 5th grade level must have been fine for him because he didn't complain and continued the class.

I feel like I did the right thing and I am shocked that more divers don't demand a higher quality of education. I am demanding a change by standing up for a superior education. I am also shocked that more divers are not backing me up as much as I expected them to. Does everyone really want the easy way out? Guess I am not the norm, seeking out real information rather then regurgitating a bunch of BS to prevent someone from getting sued.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@acelockco: I think it's really sad that such a touching gesture from your wife -- an anniversary present -- has come to this.