Problem with my Pioneer 27# wing

[boomx5]

What size wing do you use with stage bottles?

 

[SeaJay]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Give us the list...

Jeez, I hope I'm not far off on these. I don't know much about them. Only what I have heard.

I understand that the bolts that hold your wing to your backplate, which is right in the center of each, can now touch your tank because the rods aren't very large in diameter. In other words, the integrated STA, being so much closer to the backplate, now allows the bolts to mark up your tanks. Obviously, the smaller the diameter tank, the more this is going to be a problem. Not really a big deal if you use unpainted tanks, or rent them... But still, the STA-less wing apparently has a reputation for allowing the center bolts to mark tanks. To counter this, I hear that some people don't even use the bolts holding the wings in place. After all, it's possible to go without them... I just don't know that the STA rods would now be all that stable.

Speaking of stability, I understand that STAs are much better in this department, particularly if you "Line X" or "Rhino Line" your STA, which does double duty to prevent marring of your tanks. Coating your STAs will also have the purpose of keeping different metals apart from each other (a corrosion point) if you are using an AL plate with a STA, which is typically made of SS.

There are only a few STA-less wings on the market... From what I've read, I believe there's only three on the market at all, all made by Halcyon. Not that this is a bad thing, but their wings are missing some features, like a pull dump (you know my feeling on this very simple and intuitive device) and any kind of gathering or stretch material around the wing. I tend to gravitate toward wings like Dive Rite's Travel Wing, and it's tiny size with stretch material, along with a pull dump... Yet neither of these features are offered on any STA-less design. I have to choose between the two.

STA-less wings are RODS inside of fabric... That means that this area's definitely a wear point, especially if you strap those tanks down good and tight. Something tells me that they just can't possibly wear as well as STAs, although STA-less designs definitely bring the tank in closer to the diver, something that's great for bringing center of gravity and center of buoyancy together. It's also nice for a lower and more streamlined profile, not to mention that tanks that are closer to the diver's body tend to get less hung up on stuff and are less likely to get banged against low celings.

To be perfetly honest, UP, I don't much like ANY of the systems out there... STA-less designs don't seem to be without their design flaws, and STA designs are no better. Maybe it's just the newbie in me talking, but maaaan... Can't someone come up with a better design?

Just the fact that the bolts and grommets are typically sandwiched between the bp and the tank...

 

[Uncle Pug]

boomx5 once bubbled...
What size wing do you use with stage bottles?

Per Andrew G. recommendation.
Shane has a 55# as did I... but I went ahead and bought the 70# and sold the 55# wing on ebay.

I know of other DIR instructors who recommend smaller... but we are diving the PNW: coldwater & current

 

[Uncle Pug]

Get the Halcyon wing... it is superior in shape.

You really don't need the pull dump... you just think you do.

The rods hold the tank solidly (get the ss cam band buckles.)

The nuts that hold the wing and plate together can be the plastic variety just as well and will not mark up your painted tank. They only serve to hold things together until you put a tank in place and clamp it down.

I have used STAs of several designs and I currently do not use one with a LP104... this is a big tank and it is locked down just fine without an STA.

I would not lead you astray.

 

[SeaJay]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Get the Halcyon wing... it is superior in shape.

I've heard that before, but then I've also heard that it's long enough to hit the back of your head when you are diving. I can tell you that in the store, the Dive Rite Travel Pack was much smaller and more compact than the Pioneer.

I mean, not to doubt what you're saying... It's just that your idea of what's superior and mine may differ. In fact, probably will.

You really don't need the pull dump... you just think you do.

I don't think that I *need* the pull dump, but I can tell you that if I'm going to blow $500-$600 on ANY BCD, you can betchoass that I feel like I deserve it. Of course, this first means establishing that either with or without it is superior to the alternative... And that's something that I have not yet established.

The rods hold the tank solidly (get the ss cam band buckles.)

They do, hunh? So you believe the integrated STA to be of superior design? That means that if I want that feature, then it's going to be a Halcyon wing no matter what... And all of this may be a moot point anyway. I'm with ya on the ss cam buckles... After using them on other BC's, I got spoiled.

The nuts that hold the wing and plate together can be the plastic variety just as well and will not mark up your painted tank. They only serve to hold things together until you put a tank in place and clamp it down.

Yeah, I knew that... And I don't have painted tanks... I simply didn't agree with the design, and was pointing out that it's not exactly very well thought out, especially when you consider some of the excellent designs in some of the commercial products. You can bet that if I do end up getting a bp/wing setup, though, I'll be doing the plastic bolt thing. Seems silly, though.

I have used STAs of several designs and I currently do not use one with a LP104... this is a big tank and it is locked down just fine without an STA.

Hmmmm... Guess that's proof enough then!

Thanks for your input, UP...

 

[Mverick]

OK, I had it all typed out and lost it so here goes again.


On the Dive Rite Travel wing. If you get a hole in it you loose all the air. If your pull dump sticks open you loose all the air. If your buttons stick you loose all the air. Because it's expandable. The halcyon isn't expandable for that reason.

Next, on pull dumps. Yanking on your equipment doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. Your yanking on a pretty important hose. If you break the connector off. You're sinking. If you break the wire in the hose when you need it your going to the surface fast. I've seen it happen. I know you can just use your butons then. But I've seen people go all the way to the surface and at the surface still yanking on that hose. Train yourself to use the buttons and this wont happen. And when you ask why they didn't use the buttons they just shrug. Do that at depth and your in trouble. Also, if your buttons stick you can still control your bouyancy by moving the hose up and down to keep air in the wing. But not if you yank the hose off your wing.

Scratching your tanks is a non issue. I use the Halcyon with integrated STA and use the plastic bolts or zip ties. They ain't scratching nothin. I also have a FredT 2piece sta that's line-X coated and have used it twice. Not that it's bad. I just like the tank closer to my back. And I've heard people say it's more stable. But I don't do gymnastics under water but mine doesn't move around any more with or without the STA. And on the wear points on the wing. What do you thing you'll be bolting the STA to? The wing material. And to get a good snug fit you'll really want those babys tight. Which will put way more pressure on a smaller area then the whole tank putting pressure on a larger area. I can tighten down the STA to the wing a lot tighter then I can cam strap a tank to the wing.

Oh, Halcyons design was well thought out. It was done so you had the option of putting bolts through wings for duals or to hold the wing onto the backplate if you were so inclined. It's a modular design. That can be the best for any diving you do. You set it up with different wings or plates or tanks to match the diving your do.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not slamming you. Just stating reasons why I came to my conclusions. And why I dive my setup. I also have a Transpac ll and use it occasionally. But not very often anymore. I like the minimal approach of the backplate much better.

On the backplate pushing you on your face. That's why you want the extra 6lbs of trim weights. So you can slap it on the butt of the AL tank to keep it from lifting from the rear. Especially when it's empty. My HP steels are heavy and don't do that.

I have OMS, DiveRite, Halcyon wings. And for singles or Duals I like Halcyon better. But I got a good deal on my OMS wing and it is the one without bunjees. I will buy a 55 Halcyon later. I just haven't needed it.

 

[SeaJay]

Mverick once bubbled...

On the Dive Rite Travel wing. If you get a hole in it you loose all the air. If your pull dump sticks open you loose all the air. If your buttons stick you loose all the air. Because it's expandable. The halcyon isn't expandable for that reason.

Yeah, I actually thought about that... I haven't heard of such a thing before, so I was wondering if it was a valid worry or not... So it can happen, hunh? Hmmmm...

Next, on pull dumps. Yanking on your equipment doesn't give me a warm fuzzy. Your yanking on a pretty important hose. If you break the connector off. You're sinking. If you break the wire in the hose when you need it your going to the surface fast. I've seen it happen. I know you can just use your butons then. But I've seen people go all the way to the surface and at the surface still yanking on that hose. Train yourself to use the buttons and this wont happen. And when you ask why they didn't use the buttons they just shrug. Do that at depth and your in trouble. Also, if your buttons stick you can still control your bouyancy by moving the hose up and down to keep air in the wing. But not if you yank the hose off your wing.

Hmmmm... So that's why so many of you guys forgo the pull dump feature and instead attack the issue with a short hose... Shorten it to 6" or 9" or 12"... That way you are getting something that works better, simpler, and more conveinient than the freakin' two foot long hoses on most BC's, and yet not having to add the pull dump (with it's possible problems.) On the other hand, this means that if you shorten the hose that you can't really use an integrated octo (which you many of you experienced guys don't seem to like either... For this reason, maybe?)

Scratching your tanks is a non issue. I use the Halcyon with integrated STA and use the plastic bolts or zip ties. They ain't scratching nothin.

Okay, I suppose I can negate that issue by using plastic bolts instead of metal ones. And yes, I know they're just there for when you put the tank on... Not really an structual thing...

I also have a FredT 2piece sta that's line-X coated and have used it twice. Not that it's bad. I just like the tank closer to my back.

Yeah, I've heard that before too... So you like the integrated STA of the Halcyon stuff too, then?

And on the wear points on the wing. What do you thing you'll be bolting the STA to? The wing material. And to get a good snug fit you'll really want those babys tight. Which will put way more pressure on a smaller area then the whole tank putting pressure on a larger area.

Good point. I didn't think of that. That's why I asked you guys!

You do realize that the jacket-style BC (or for that matter, any back inflate too) has no wear points at all... No fabric being pinched by a STA or by the tank... No issue with a long hose as an inflator/deflator, and thus can use an integrated octo, and thus can get rid of the "octopus." And with the pull dump, deflation is easier and quicker. And of course, because the BC's are manufactured, heat treated, and vulcanized, the parts are less likely to pull out of the bladder than with a wing that's been glued on by hand. And with most manufactured bc's on the market, the tank is held onto a backplate (!) that's built into the fabric by a big shoe, distributing load evenly and not marring tanks, not making any wear points, and generally not causing damage.

I know, I know... BP/wing setup only... And I'm with you on that... And I'm not saying that jackets are better than bp/wings, or vice-vera. My point is that there are many issues here with these homemade units that manufactured units (that you guys regularly make fun of) don't have.

For these reasons, I can't seem to sell myself on EITHER design.

Oh, Halcyons design was well thought out. It was done so you had the option of putting bolts through wings for duals or to hold the wing onto the backplate if you were so inclined.

I know that sounds wonderful, but that's something that many BC's have... Scubapro's Nighthawk and Seaquest's Black Diamond (top of the line back inflate BC's) both not only accept either singles or doubles, but do it with a "shoe" that won't mar tanks and won't slip, even if the strap isn't "crusher" tight. SeaQuest's QD line and Scubapro's Classic (two top of the line jacket style BC's) have identical systems. And they do it in ABS plastic so that there's no corrosion issues and it does not contribute to a possible overweighting problem.

In other words, the top of the line BC's that are available out there now, in both back inflate and jacket styles, also accept singles or doubles... And do it simpler, with less possible damage or corrosion. In fact, most of the shoe-style tank holders are so effective at creating a non-slip surface for the tank to adhere to that only one strap is necessary for attachment.

And by the way, all four of the top of the line, manufactured BC's that I mentioned above all have backplates built right in for stability. They are not soft in design like the Transpac.

In fact, if I recall correctly, I believe that all of them will also accept a crotch strap if you like, although most find it unecessary due to the more "complete" fit of the BC instead of just a few straps.

Again, I know it sounds like I'm cheering the manufactured stuff along... But I'm not. I like what I've experienced so far on the lines of bp/wing setups and the Transpac (sorta a "cross" between). It's just that the points you guys seem to bring up about this stuff doesn't always seem to fit.

I feel almost like I'm arguing Mac vs. PC... And you know how complicated that can get! Harley vs. Sportbike. Chocolate vs. vanilla.

One more thing, too... You said something about someone rising rapidly, not figuring out that their pull dump wasn't working, and refusing to dump via the inflator hose. To me, that doesn't sound like an issue with the equipment, that sounds like an issue with the brain of the person using the equipment. All of the manufactured BC's that I listed above have TWO pull dumps... One on the left shoulder at the top of the inflator hose, and then another on the right shoulder identical to the bottom dump... You know, with a cord on it. That, of course, is in addition to the regular old inflator hose pushbutton, like everyone is using. In other words, there's lots of options out there if something won't dump. At least, there is with these manufactured BC's. Not so with the bp/wing setups.

Oh... And as far as any of those valves failing in the open position, or a tear or rip appearing in your BC... Don't think that that couldn't happen to any BC, at any time. You could penetrate a wreck and tear a wing or a bladder or a BC just as easily, no matter who made the BC. I know you feel that "pulling" on something connected is really bad, but if that was such a big worry, why wouldn't we outlaw bottom dumps?

My point is that I don't believe that anyone is free and clear of the possibility of a bladder failure, no matter which system you are using, and I don't believe that the manufactured BC-wearer is any MORE at risk than the homemade BC-wearer.

But I will tell you this... It's because of this risk that manufacturers design their BC's to have ditchable weight... So that in the case of a bladder or buoyancy failure, a diver can once again gain buoyancy. And pull dump or not, if you have no ditchable weight then you're at risk. For that person, a bladder failure means that they're swimming to stay up, if it's even possible. And I don't see anyone but homebuilt BCD-users weighting themselves with no ditchable weight.

So pull dump or not, the risk is still there. And it can be managed using ditchable weight. No matter who you are and what rig you dive.

It's a modular design. That can be the best for any diving you do. You set it up with different wings or plates or tanks to match the diving your do.

Agreed. Versitility seems to be the key here. I'm all for it... The only difference I see between bp/wing setups and any other setup is that the webbing can be infinitely adjusted, whereas the manufactured units only have *some* adjustment. On the other hand, it could be argued that the manufactured units only have the adjustment that is necessary... Nobody needs an 8' long shoulder strap. The other adjustment that I can see is the wing size... Whereas most manufactured back inflate style BC's have a relatively large wing, it's not generally possible to get a smaller one. However, the jackets that I've been using seem to fit close to my body, and have the best of both worlds... Both tons of lift, and streamlining... Due to their close fit, yet having more inflatable surface area. BP/wing setups are completely customizable... But that could also be translated as, "everything's a compramise." The large wings are ungainly, and the small wings don't lift much. And of course, this can be an issue if you're an instructor who's helping to calm a panicked student at the surface.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not slamming you. Just stating reasons why I came to my conclusions. And why I dive my setup. I also have a Transpac ll and use it occasionally. But not very often anymore. I like the minimal approach of the backplate much better.

Oh, I'm taking no offense whatsoever. I'm very interested in your opinion. I asked for it, and I am not trying to argue you out of it. I sincerely want to understand each and every person's point of view, because I want to use other's experiences and knowlege to help offset some of my newness. Keep in mind I've only got 21 dives under my belt (well, the certified ones, anyway!)

Likewise, if my points seem silly or stupid to you, I ask that you please understand... It's just my opinion, and that's subject to change anyway. Probably will as I get more dives! But I still have these nagging points that don't seem to go away.

Imagine this: One day you decide to begin racing powerboats... And you are considering buying one. You contemplate size, engine displacement, where you're racing, hull design, and even the color of the boat. You get a pretty good idea, based on available data and lots of racing, of what you want. Then you come across a bunch of people who race sailboats. Let's say these are really experienced, professional people who race for the America's Cup... And they all talk about how "fast" their boats are.

Now here you are in this social situation with a bunch of people who you really could grow to like very much, who all have lots of experience and some of which are very much race-winners. Almost all of them all have years of experience, and some of them have the trophies to prove it.

So when you ask some of the more friendly ones, "Hey, why do you like this sport," and they reply, "Because of the feeling of SPEED across the water," you'd be wondering, "WTF??" I mean, your little 19 foot runabout is way faster and requires less maintenance and heck, you can even go in it alone. To you, "boating" or even "racing" is as far away as getting in the boat and going for a drive... These sailing guys leave sometimes for weeks at a shot because they just don't get "the feeling" unless they're offshore.

And when you hear a couple of these guys making fun of powerboaters, who they can't stand because of "all of the gadgets on their boats" and all of the "uncessessary equipment" on their smoking hulks... Well, that'd be just a bit confusing, wouldn't you say? Especially when you plainly see, every time you pass one, a "dangly mini-engine" on the back of their sailboat (not unlike the lift bags and spools and hanging weights and pockets and wires for lights, etc. that hangs from y'all's rigs that you claim to be so streamlined).

In that situation, I'd ask a lot of questions... Especially since I was new. I'd ask so that I can understand. I'd ask so that I can relate. I'd ask so that my equipment didn't end up on eBay. I'd ask so that I don't buy something and then a month later decide "it just ain't for me" beacuse I'm wearing the wrong gear.

So please take no offense. I'm looking for understanding here.

I just can't wait to dive a backplate... I liked the Transpac... It was better than the Scubapro Glide jacket that I wore an hour earlier. I wasn't really sold on either. My favorite is still the Scubapro Classic jacket, but I'm dying to try the bp/wing setup too. I feel like a sportbike guy trying to understand cruisers by buying the fastest cruiser I can find... Which really seems a little like I'm missing the point.

...Which makes me want to ask more questions. At some point here, if I don't get to dive a bp/wing correctly set up, then I'm going to eventually decide that I just don't get it. Maybe I'm not supposed to.

On the backplate pushing you on your face. That's why you want the extra 6lbs of trim weights. So you can slap it on the butt of the AL tank to keep it from lifting from the rear. Especially when it's empty. My HP steels are heavy and don't do that.

Yeah, I did finally figure out why my experiences were so different from everyone else's... It was all about trim, which I got pretty decent as soon as I realized what I'd been doing wrong. From there, I found out that basically I can pretty much balance anything. My feeling is, now, that anyone who complains of the face-forward syndrome isn't trimming themselves correctly.

On the other hand, the reason that many have never developed this skill is probably because jacket style BC's don't need to be trimmed... Waist and front weights ARE trimmed correctly when you have inflation in the front. Not so with back inflates and backplates. On those, the weight needs to be placed in other places in order to get the same results.

My experience (however short) is that if it were MY BCD, I'd trim whatever I wore the correct way and be done with it, and thus never really have any trim issues, no matter what rig I dove. I think most would probably do the same, with experience.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Seajay....
Manufactured vs homemade?
Where are you coming up with this glop?
I am beginning to think that you are a troll...

 

[cybordolphin]

I dove wet with heavy 9lb. s/s bp, s/s sta, and steel tank. I was too heavy (gee... ya think!). I could swim it up... but made my instructors nervous.

I since have gone with an AL Bp, s/s sta, and 27lb. Pioneer, with an AL80. This put me at 18 lbs. ditchable weight, when diving wet in ow. I am going to try a 6lb. s/s bp, and stay with an AL80, and perhaps lose the s/s STA, and see how that goes. Likely I will end up staying with the AL bp.

I think as mentioned a lot has to do with your body type. I have little fat, 195lbs..

I would not go with a s/s bp unless you are diving a drysuit, and need lots of weight.

Get an Al BP if you are diving wet, and go from there.
JMO.

 

[SeaJay]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
Seajay....
Manufactured vs homemade?
Where are you coming up with this glop?
I am beginning to think that you are a troll...

"Glop?"

Hmmmm... Should I have instead called them "manufactured" vs. "assembled?" That's not "glop." With any other BCD, you go buy it and use it... With a bp/wings, you buy it in pieces and assemble it for use. Many people don't even buy the same name brand parts and thus have what many are calling, "mutt rigs." Supposedly, they are some of the best rigs out there... A FredT "light" and "short" with a Halcyon Pioneer 27 and a Dive Rite ditchable weight system, for example. And the webbing you buy separately (unknown brand name) and put it all together with a hot nail and a screwdriver.

You wouldn't call that "homemade?" You think that Scubapro asks you to put together their Nighthawk with a hot nail and a screwdriver?

No trolling here, UP... This is dead-straight stuff... And maybe now y'all can understand why I haven't simply jumped on the bp/wing setup bandwagon easily.

I don't get it... This board is known for it's strong and vocal opinions on bp/wings, something that is not agreed upon by the general scuba community, and therefore is a unique characteristic. When I come on here and ask, "Why the love for this certain kind of gear," I am accused of being a troll in this case, "related to the dive industry" in another, and "just plain unsafe in the water" in yet another. So when I realistically ask the very appropriate question of, "Why the fascination with these things," I get answers like, "They're simpler," "they're more streamlined," or "they're safer." Of course, no matter which "experienced" person I ask, they can't legitimately give me a reason why any of those things would be true over a modern, commercially available, every day BCD. They're NOT simpler... They require a great deal of assembly and planning and customizing. In many cases, the entire harness system is hand built by you... Making it more customized, but definitely not simpler. They're NOT more streamlined. Sure, as compared to a poor fitting, ten year old, wrong sized, entry level BCD, they may seem a lot more streamlined. However, if you compare a back inflate like a Nighthawk or a Black Diamond, or even a jacket style BCD like a Scubapro Classic or a SeaQuest Pro QD, there is no significant amount of drag that's saved by going with a bp/wing setup. It may FEEL that way, since all of the "stuff" is moved off of your chest and back behind you... But it's still there. In fact, an aeronautical engineer would probably tell you that the all-over bladder which makes up your upper end of a well-fitting jacket style BC will probably produce less drag in the water than the totally separate, bag-like bladder of a bp/wing setup. It's just that as the diver, you don't see it because it's behind you. Now, add to that a 7 foot hose and a secondary bungeed around your neck, a canoe-paddle guage console hanging off your left side, a variety of "danglies" such as canister lights and wires, backup lights, lift bags, deco bottles, and the like... And the concept of "streamlining" is completely rediculous. Compare that to a recreational diver with an AL80, a jacket style BC, an integrated octo, and a wireless, hoseless computer mounted on his wrist, and you can see why he'd be more streamlined. Sure, there is a big difference in the capabilities of those two example divers, but that's not what was said... What was said, and what is the general thought process is that bp/wing setups are more streamlined, and that's just not true. As far as these rigs being "safer:" Don't give me that baloney. Cave diving, wreck diving, deep diving, and all of the other things y'all are doing is NOT safe. SAFE is staying home and vegging on the couch and watching the ball game. SAFE is reading a book (preferrably one without an offensive title). SAFE is being a good Boy Scout and helping the little old lady cross the street. We aren't in this sport because we want to be safe... We're in this sport for whatever it brings you... Excitement, adrenaline, relaxation, exploration, discovery... And that means that risks are a part of it. Managing these risks is the safeEST way of enjoying this sport. And I can tell you this: Statistically, risk increases with depth, cold, penetration, duration, etc... So don't even begin to tell me that bp/wing setups, primarily designed for "tech" diving instead of "rec" diving, is "safer" than any other rig. That's just baloney, and any statistical difference in the number of accidents that people have while wearing a certain kind of gear is definitely overshadowed by the risk level of the activity that put them in harm's way in the first place.

...So I'm still finding that every time I gear up, I remind myself to get rid of as much gear as possible. I find that "danglies" get in the way. "Catch bags" should be stowed until they are needed, and everything works a whole lot better when it's tied down, put away, or left on the dock/boat. If I could go without a regulaor, without a mask, without a BCD at all, without weight, fins... I'd do it. Unfortunately, these things ADD to the enjoyment of the dive (and in some cases are necessary for the dive), and thus should stay on my person. So I dive with minimal gear... Little danglies (why clip it when you can pocket it? Can you imagine clipping everything to yourself in your day-to-day activities? This is a dumb idea... Stick it in your pocket!) and few "extras." I'm learning that a major selling point of new gear for me is simplification. Does the new device simplify my rig? Does it make it easier to operate? Does it streamline me? Does it get rid of other things? For this reason, I dig pull dumps, bungeed inflator hoses, integrated octos, and hoseless computers. I also dig short primary hoses, light wetsuits, and good, strong, high quality fins and masks that are simple in design. I tried many masks with lots of features ("tilted" lenses, multiple lenses, colored lenses, lights built into them, "long" lenses, etc.) and finally found that my favorite was a Scubapro Fino... In black to prevent annoying light leakage in low vis situations. Fits great, and is simple in design and quality in workmanship. My fins are of the paddle type... The "Quattros" by Mares. Every year they get great reviews, and have been some magazines' favorites for many years. They are simple in design, produce as much or more thrust than any other fin on the market (according to Divernet and Rodale's both) and attractive to the eye. They are also of the "paddle" variety, meaning that they maneuver better than the split fin variety and allow for more finning options than split fins. See, the beauty is in the simplicity and the mastery of the basics, not in some complex and revolutionary idea.

And so in continuing with those ideals that have kept me alive up to this point, despite many seasons of racing, many seasons of flying, many sesons of bungee jumping, etc... I'd like to find out what's "simplest" and "a mastery of the basics" when it comes to BCD's... And that, I have not decided yet. People keep telling me it's the bp/wings, but I'm not finding that to be true.

All I can say is that I still haven't found what I'm looking for, and I'm still all ears.