Question Prior Injuries and Diving (Wounds, Stroke, DCS)

[tursiops]

10+ years ago I would have been told "no diving" per the standard brainless PADI forms at the time.

Those were RSTC forms that PADI stuck its logo on. Bash on.

I have done liveaboards in the Red Sea, Cocos, Galapagos, Cayman, Revillagigedos, and Malpelo, not a single medical form. I have not filled out a medical form since my 2013 SDI Solo certification and have only filled out medical forms in conjunction with training. No day boat has ever requested any medical information.

I have been asked at almost every resort or liveaboard for some kind of statement on my medical condition. It has ranged from the same RSTC form used by the training agencies to "are you fit to dive" questions.

Ah, so we have managed to turn a thread into PADI bashing.

I assume the brainless "PADI forms at the time" being bashed are the old RSTC medical form. As I described earlier, the form asked you if you had history with certain conditions, and if so, to get a doctor to sign off that you are OK to dive.

The current PADI medical forms do not even have the PADI logo on them. They are directly from the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society and have logos from UHMS, DAN, WRSTC, and RSTC.

A diving organisation aiming at maximizing profit (all professional diving instruction and guiding agencies as far as I understand) needs to find a sweet spot between risk and profit.

Not sure what you mean by "organization." The groups you denigrate are training agencies, not diving clubs, and have no authority over anything other than training, and over instructors for the agencies in some situations. And not all the ones you mention are commercial; NAUI, for example, is not-for-profit.

 

[rhwestfall]

Half of it is....

 

[rjack321]

Hi @rjack321

I have not dived in the Great Lakes. Do you have references for DCS below a surfacing GF of less than 80? I'm not sure how long surfacing GF has been available. Of course GF 99 is surfacing GF once you are on the surface.

There was a Canadian woman horribly bent in Egypt about 4 years ago with a surfacing GF far less than 80. IIRC her profile was 60ft for 45mins on EAN32. She had no prior DCS history, was the first day of her trip. I believe her case was discussed here on SB, she did at least 15 chamber rides before being allowed to fly home to Vancouver. She quit diving I believe.

Steve Bogarts has bent himself at 30ft in an hour at <40ft. Also far less the GF h80, he has an extensive DCS history. He has also quit diving. He elaborated on his recurrent DCS via the most basic and extreemely unprovocative profiles quite extensively on facebook leading up to his diving retirement.

I have been bent at GF 80/85 high as well. I can get away with it on 1 dive/day. On repetitive dives I will get mild DCS symptoms about 40-60% of the time until I back off to GF70-75 high. There are many threads here about this topic.

 

[rjack321]

Those were RSTC forms that PADI stuck its logo on. Bash on.

They were an earlier generation yes. Their only real purpose IMO, at least for divers with some modicum of self awareness and self assessment of which @Trace Malinowski is certainly one - is to shift the liability from the instructor/operator to a physician. The issue becomes a lack of data, the inability to ethically collect any data, and the patient specific unknowns about DCS and other perfusion limiting injuries. When you combine that with defensive medicine, nobody will "sign off" on you.

 

[Subcooled]

Not sure what you mean by "organization." The groups you denigrate are training agencies, not diving clubs, and have no authority over anything other than training, and over instructors for the agencies in some situations. And not all the ones you mention are commercial; NAUI, for example, is not-for-profit.

I mean a training agency and by that I actually refer to the instructors that run courses defined by some training agency.

It is of course incorrect to say that a diving course is organised by agency X. It is organized by instructor Y, who follows the rules of the agency X. Sorry for this inaccuracy.

 

[ofg-1]

Trace, glad you are doing better, at least well enough to think about diving again. Did you get checked for a PFO?

 

[jadairiii]

You are focused on my motivations for the OP and not the questions I asked in my OP. A doctor should be able to post about the relationship of different injuries to perfusion and off-gassing.

Not really. You've asked very generic questions regarding health conditions and have made an assumption that all of those health conditions were cleared for diving. I'm no doctor but I do know that a "stroke" (there's a joke in here) can be defined many ways and have many causes, not all of which would be cleared for diving. Same with the laundry list of other ailments you seem to believe get a blanket clearance.

Add to that, your assumption that those "individuals" were cleared for diving, may not have been or they may never have asked or told their doctor(s). Shocking as that may be, I mean, people not being completely honest to their doctors?

And I'm just as bad, after a very bad bike accident, where i sustained a "minor" head injury, and going to the ER, l never told the ER doc about the head issue, last thing I wanted to have done is been put on some concussion protocol! Nor did I ask about when I could dive again! Heck, I've had a piece of "shrapnel" in my leg from an industrial incident for years and years, never once did I even ask if I could dive with it? Why?

Point is, you've made a lot of assumptions to attempt to validate why you dont have to listen to your doctors. That is obvious.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Not really. You've asked very generic questions regarding health conditions and have made an assumption that all of those health conditions were cleared for diving. I'm no doctor but I do know that a "stroke" (there's a joke in here) can be defined many ways and have many causes, not all of which would be cleared for diving. Same with the laundry list of other ailments you seem to believe get a blanket clearance.

Add to that, your assumption that those "individuals" were cleared for diving, may not have been or they may never have asked or told their doctor(s). Shocking as that may be, I mean, people not being completely honest to their doctors?

And I'm just as bad, after a very bad bike accident, where i sustained a "minor" head injury, and going to the ER, l never told the ER doc about the head issue, last thing I wanted to have done is been put on some concussion protocol! Nor did I ask about when I could dive again! Heck, I've had a piece of "shrapnel" in my leg from an industrial incident for years and years, never once did I even ask if I could dive with it? Why?

Point is, you've made a lot of assumptions to attempt to validate why you dont have to listen to your doctors. That is obvious.

All I know about scarring is that it leaves a mark. Since I have degrees in the arts rather than the sciences I posted questions asking about injuries. I have a hunch that PFO's lead to repeat DCS and that is why early researchers believed you are more susceptible to repeated DCS injuries. My doctors admit they know nothing about diving and can only go with what they read.

I could have asked people not to post if they aren't going to answer the questions I asked scientifically, but this thread soon went off-topic. I'm not looking for encouragement even though I thanked people for leaving encouraging posts. I'm looking for science behind scar tissue and neurological damage in general which a doctor should be able to answer because that's not medical advice, but the science behind the advice.

l was the training director of 2 agencies and an instructor since 1989, I used to collect the RSTC medical forms and joke that no one ever has ever been sick or injured when taking a scuba class. I was also a stroke before becoming GUE Tech 1 & 2.

 

[jadairiii]

My doctors admit they know nothing about diving and can only go with what they read.

You are seeing a hyperbaric doctor/specialist that knows nothing about diving?

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Trace, glad you are doing better, at least well enough to think about diving again. Did you get checked for a PFO?

Part of my future plans. I have an MRI with contrast tomorrow.

You are seeing a hyperbaric doctor/specialist that knows nothing about diving?

So far. Most hyperbarics are wound care now. They don't really know much more than a scuba instructor knows whose read any DAN literature. Their passion isn't diving, therefore they don't pour over diving medicine literature like a hyperbaric doc would who does rebreather diving. I'm trying to find answers beyond the RSTC, ADCI, US Navy and whatever else you can Google. I know there has to be someone out there willing to talk science.

Almost 14 years ago, I developed a really awful floater in my eye. All the doctors I saw said I had to live with except for one of the world's best who developed more than 57 surgical instruments. "Want me to get rid of that for you?" I did. He did. Now, vitrectomies and laser surgery to remove floaters are easy to find. 15 to 20 years ago, not so much. I'm sure someone out there has the best info available for me to decide whether to just freedive or to return to cave diving.