Preparing for fundamentals / intro to tech

[kensuf]

I always thought it's a cult but the gue fanboys have gotten worse over the years... ..

I'm calling BS on this. It's been a problem for years, the first time I heard the phrase "scuba nazi" in reference to a fanboi was probably back in 1998.

I dig the Tesla references though. As a self-professed Mac user (but I also use an Android phone), I kind of take a little issue with the Apple fanboi comments too.

 

[blueskies_up_ahead]

@blueskies_up_ahead By my count, I'm the 6th instructor to comment in this thread.

Of the other instructors, 3 have said that you shouldn't practice new skills prior to taking ITT/Fundies, 1 did not comment, and 1 said it was ok to practice new things.

I'm going to throw my hat in with the don't practice new things folks, so make that 4 against and one for...

Whether you take fundies or a good ITT class, or hell, even advanced open water, as an instructor I can tell you that it's easier to teach a good habit to someone who has no experience than it is to break a bad habit. For example, I get a lot of students who were taught to kneel in the pool during open water, when they show up for their first class with me, I know it is going to take about 6 hours of training to get them to the point where they can hover horizontally and have decent looking trim.

In contrast, brand new open water students will have (generally) learned to hover horizontally and control their buoyancy at least as well by the third hour of pool instruction.

Hm, I'm not convinced yet. I think the problem here is the notion of a bad habit and at what point it becomes difficult to break. I'll use your example: I was trained in OWD on my knees mostly. I did teach myself trim, buoyancy and hence to dive in a horizontal position. I also kept practising skills, so I am now perfectly able to take off my mask, clear it or switch to a backup mask all while in trim and without significant changes to buoyancy. Same goes for air sharing, finning etc. Yet, I'm absolutely certain I will be able to make adjustments and changes to how I do that if shown a better way to for example store and unclip my spare mask or the order in which to do things etc. Those are details. But the basic skill is there. The comfort doing them is there. Maybe other people struggle with this and it's just that I am used to learning things and have a good sense of my body in space. Or everyone is like that. I have no idea. But I have zero doubt I will be a better fundies student having practiced those things even if I need to improve and make adjustments. However, we are talking about a few months of diving and practicing things. We're not talking about a diver who has done things "wrong" or inefficiently for 10 years. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

 

[Lorenzoid]

However, we are talking about a few months of diving and practicing things. We're not talking about a diver who has done things "wrong" or inefficiently for 10 years. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

If you're diving in the full tech gear configuration, then I agree a few months of practice seems unlikely to ingrain any way of doing something that can't be re-learned if you decide to.

I had been diving for almost 10 years when I took Fundies, and for me it was like learning a whole new way to dive. But that's because I had been diving in a standard jacket-style BC and had never heard anyone say that maintaining a horizontal body position ("trim"--never heard the word in the diving context) was useful or especially desirable. I could maintain depth fairly precisely, but I had discovered that I was only able to do that when moving; until Fundies I had never been asked to stay completely still, hovering in one place, and that was the most difficult skill to learn. When I started diving with a drysuit and double steel tanks it took me over a year of frequent practice with ascents and descents to regain the kind of precision I had when I was diving with a single Al 80 in a wetsuit for 10 years. So I would say the gear is half the battle. Once you're comfortable with the gear, you can readily learn (or re-learn ) ways of doing specific skills. From what I have heard other divers describe, those who were less "experienced" when they transitioned to tech-style diving had an easier time of it.

 

[crofrog]

Hm, I'm not convinced yet. I think the problem here is the notion of a bad habit and at what point it becomes difficult to break.

If you're diving in the full tech gear configuration, then I agree a few months of practice seems unlikely to ingrain any way of doing something that can't be re-learned if you decide to.

I've done a lot of instruction for firearms over the years. For those who haven't shot before, shooting a gun is conceptually pretty simple. I've watched people create habits in the course of weeks of learning on their own, that have serious safety implications and can take months of energy to correct.

If you're primacy was wrong, it's going to take a lot of intensity to correct.


Quotes below from the Aviation Instructor's Handbook (FAA-H-8083-9)

​

Thorndike and the Laws of Learning​

​

One of the pioneers of educational psychology, E.L. Thorndike formulated three laws of learning in the early 20th century. [Figure 3-7] These laws are universally accepted and apply to all kinds of learning: the law of readiness, the law of exercise, and the law of effect. Since Thorndike set down his laws, three more have been added: the law of primacy, the law of intensity, and the law of recency.​

​

...​

​

Primacy​

​

When an error occurs pouring a concrete foundation for a building, undoing and correcting the job becomes much more difficult than doing it right the first time. Primacy in teaching and learning, what is learned first, often creates a strong, almost unshakable impression and underlies the reason an instructor needs to teach correctly the first time.​

​

Also, if the task is learned in isolation, it is not initially applied to the overall performance, or if it needs to be relearned, the process can be confusing and time consuming. The first experience should be positive, functional, and lay the correct foundation for all that is to follow.​

​

...​

​

Habit Formation​

​

The formation of correct habit patterns from the beginning of any learning process is essential to further learning and for correct performance after the completion of training. Remember, primacy is one of the fundamental principles of learning. Therefore, it is the instructor’s responsibility to insist on correct techniques and procedures from the outset of training to provide proper habit patterns. It is much easier to foster proper habits from the beginning of training than to correct faulty ones later.​

 

[kierentec]

If you decide on the GUE path, the best advice I can give about preparing for fundamentals is to dive and have fun, read the materials and watch the skills videos on GUE.tv. Don't worry about practicing the skills, that's what the class is for. You'll have plenty of opportunities for land drills and in-water practice in class. There's the possibility of picking up bad habits quite quickly that are difficult to break, like which hand to use for which reg, how to clip off the longhose, stowing light cable, etc. that are super important not just for fundies, but further tech and cave training. It all seems simple at the fundamentals level, but it's all connected and the smallest details are crucial when the task loading is high (Deploying an SMB and doing gas switches from a gas share in mid-water, or bottle rotations in mid-water on a CCR, for example).

If taking intro to tech, I'd say the same. Read and check out all the GUE stuff first so you can compare it to what you are learning elsewhere and ask questions about why it is being done the way it is and how it fits into higher capacity diving.

 

[kierentec]

I've done a lot of instruction for firearms over the years. For those who haven't shot before, shooting a gun is conceptually pretty simple. I've watched people create habits in the course of weeks of learning on their own, that have serious safety implications and can take months of energy to correct.

If you're primary was wrong, it's going to take a lot of intensity to correct.


Quotes below from the Aviation Instructor's Handbook (FAA-H-8083-9)

​

Thorndike and the Laws of Learning​

​

One of the pioneers of educational psychology, E.L. Thorndike formulated three laws of learning in the early 20th century. [Figure 3-7] These laws are universally accepted and apply to all kinds of learning: the law of readiness, the law of exercise, and the law of effect. Since Thorndike set down his laws, three more have been added: the law of primacy, the law of intensity, and the law of recency.​

​

...​

​

Primacy​

​

When an error occurs pouring a concrete foundation for a building, undoing and correcting the job becomes much more difficult than doing it right the first time. Primacy in teaching and learning, what is learned first, often creates a strong, almost unshakable impression and underlies the reason an instructor needs to teach correctly the first time.​

​

Also, if the task is learned in isolation, it is not initially applied to the overall performance, or if it needs to be relearned, the process can be confusing and time consuming. The first experience should be positive, functional, and lay the correct foundation for all that is to follow.​

​

...​

​

Habit Formation​

​

The formation of correct habit patterns from the beginning of any learning process is essential to further learning and for correct performance after the completion of training. Remember, primacy is one of the fundamental principles of learning. Therefore, it is the instructor’s responsibility to insist on correct techniques and procedures from the outset of training to provide proper habit patterns. It is much easier to foster proper habits from the beginning of training than to correct faulty ones later.​

I could not agree more, and this is the foundation for GUE instruction.

 

[rddvet]

Hm, I'm not convinced yet. I think the problem here is the notion of a bad habit and at what point it becomes difficult to break. I'll use your example: I was trained in OWD on my knees mostly. I did teach myself trim, buoyancy and hence to dive in a horizontal position. I also kept practising skills, so I am now perfectly able to take off my mask, clear it or switch to a backup mask all while in trim and without significant changes to buoyancy. Same goes for air sharing, finning etc. Yet, I'm absolutely certain I will be able to make adjustments and changes to how I do that if shown a better way to for example store and unclip my spare mask or the order in which to do things etc. Those are details. But the basic skill is there. The comfort doing them is there. Maybe other people struggle with this and it's just that I am used to learning things and have a good sense of my body in space. Or everyone is like that. I have no idea. But I have zero doubt I will be a better fundies student having practiced those things even if I need to improve and make adjustments. However, we are talking about a few months of diving and practicing things. We're not talking about a diver who has done things "wrong" or inefficiently for 10 years. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

Why not contact your fundies instructor and ask what his/her opinion is? I am fully in the camp that you should get comfortable in the water, but trying to learn a skill has the potential to lead to poor muscle memory. Its not a guarantee you'll form negative muscle memory, but there are enough instructors that have seen it to validate the point. I'm not saying reaching back and getting comfortable manipulating valves is bad. I'd say learning to do the gue valve drill on your own is a mistake. It is a specific sequence to be followed and you don't need to risk clouding your mind with the wrong process.
I would willingly bet $100 if we put up a poll for GUE instructors that the majority would say they don't want you trying to learn a valve drill on your own before class. That's what you're paying them for.

 

[crofrog]

If you decide on the GUE path, the best advice I can give about preparing for fundamentals is to dive and have fun, read the materials and watch the skills videos on GUE.tv. Don't worry about practicing the skills, that's what the class is for.

I wish more people would look at Fundies as training, and not as an evaluation. I feel like Fundies part 1 / part 2 was an attempt to break it up somewhat so that people could take part 1 and just focus on learning and not be worried about evaluation.

 

[berndo]

I'm calling BS on this. It's been a problem for years, the first time I heard the phrase "scuba nazi" in reference to a fanboi was probably back in 1998.

I think is this repect Germany is 10 or 15 years behind. They have only really grown in the last years. I reckon there are more gue instructors here per capita now than in the States and there are least 4 or 5 german youtube channels only pushing gue... and there is not even any good diving here. In contrast, France has great diving and has no gue instructors.
The Germans love strict rules, wearing matching t-shirts and following a system... so gue is right up their ally and many of them have just found out about them in recent years.

@blueskies_up_ahead Die Leute hier gehen alle davon aus das Jeder ein völliger Bewegungslegastheniker ist und sonst auch nichts schnallt, wenn's einem nicht haarklein beigepuhlt wird. Das mag ja da drüben so sein, aber das ist nicht normal. Es lernen ja praktisch alle Leute auf den Knien und können trotzdem die Maske ausblasen ohne sich jeden mal hinzusetzen. Das ist alles maßlos übertrieben.

But that's because I had been diving in a standard jacket-style BC and had never heard anyone say that maintaining a horizontal body position ("trim"--never heard the word in the diving context) was useful or especially desirable.

Using a jacked style bcd or something alse has no bearing on trim and for diving with current from the side or when swimming against it, trim was always a thing. It's not a tec skill and neither is or was hovering. People have been hovering on safety stops for decades. It really strange to me when you say you never heard of trim in ten years of diving and didn't know why it would be useful in certain situations.

 

[PR_SMITH]

I did Fundies in 2009, a year after I started diving. I had 20 dives under my belt, and didn't pass, but I got a solid foundation of skills that I have practiced and refined ever since. I saw the course as a good thing at 20 dives, so I didn't have to break any bad habits.