Poor Students, or Poor instructors?

[sharpenu]

In keeping with the other thread about incompetent instructors, I have a few stories to share.
1) On a recent dive, during the dive brief, the Captain mentioned the safety stop. The (newly certified) diver next to me leaned over and said "What's a safety stop?" (cringe)

2) On another dive, an instructor with a class was sharing our boat. We saw them on the bottom, STANDING on the reef, performing skills, broken reef parts flying around them. Back on the boat, I chewed him out in front of his class, the Captain and the other people on the boat.

3) I dove a wreck in Miami at 110 feet on EANx32. At the surface a couple of new divers on the boat asked the Captain how long the next dive would last. His reply was "dive your computer, it will be a 60 foot drift". They said "We don't have a computer." Answer:"Look at your tables" "We don't have any." I jump in here:" I have some. How long where you down?" They say" I don't know" After much discussion between the divers, captain and my buddy, we told them they had so many minutes at 60 feet or they could stay above 50 and get 10 extra. They wound up staying longer than I did AND went to the bottom. (67 feet) I know the instructor who certified them, and he is a good one. Some people just prove Darwin's theory daily.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Try as I might, you cannot place 100% of the blame squarely on the instructors, agencies, and the industry as a whole. Some people are just plain .... duh. You would think, though, that if they were this incompetent, they wouldn't have made it out of OW class. This is my biggest beef with OW. I think OW classes are way too short and the standards way too easy.

Keep in mind the majority of deaths in scuba occur with divers having accumulated less than 20 dives. For this reason alone, I think the agencies incur a great deal of responsibility for allowing such easy and low standards.

My take.

Mike

 

[VTWarrenG]

Mike,

I with you 110%. I have grave misgivings about PADI's little test philosophy, too: you can get everything wrong, and it doesn't matter, as long as the instructor explains to you what you missed.

I don't know about you, but most people listen and nod much better than they learn. If the diver can't answer the simple PADI questions (sure, give them a few chances, that's ok), they shouldn't be diving.

Unfortunately, people don't think of dive training like they think of, say, an art class. No one thinks that they're necessarily going to be an artist when they sign up for an art class. Everyone thinks they're necessarily going to be diver when they sign up for dive class.

Some people don't deserve the OW c-card, even after several attempts. Refund their money if they're that mad about it.

- Warren

 

[Lost Yooper]

This discussion has been coming up quite often on this board and others. I continue to hammer home that it is not in the best finacial interest of the agencies (most agencies), instructors, or the industry as a whole to raise their standards. They are primarily interested in speed, easy instruction, and enrollment. Why? To make the most amount of money with the least amount of cost. This is business 101. In most industries, however, there is always someone out there offering quality over quanity. IMO, this is GUE in the diving industry.
In order to increase the standards, prices would have to be raised significantly and, as a result, enrollment would decline. If enrollment declines then there would be fewer divers (though probably better divers) and less revenue from equipment sales. GUE accepted this right from the get go and has made it work -- just like someone else might try to do in another type of industry.

Similary, it is not in their best finacial interest to sell efficient, good quality gear that will adapt with a diver. IMO, this is why DIR is so hotly debated by many within the industry. Imagine what would happen to the industry if GUE type standards were required by all the training agencies. Imagine what would happen if divers were making wise equipment choices. DIR is contrary to the money part of the equation. It's never mattered if it makes sense, but whether it facilitates making money -- it really doesn't.

This industry is money driven (like most industries), and the results are what we see on charter boats and many divers underwater. I don't see it changing. In fact, I see the greed getting worse among most of the agencies.

We'll see.

Mike

PS. Most industries aren't involved in placing people in an unfriendly environment. Herein, lies the difference and the problem as I see it.

 

[Friggincold]

...but it probably won't happen. If industry standards were raised, then the training agencies loose big time, they do nothing more than sell books and teaching materials that's how they make their money. The agencies set the standards for themselves . I believe some of the agencies put out the minimum defensible in court standards. Also I have been told that the average a new instructor teaches is only 3 years. I guess it takes them that long to find out they starve trying to make diving a career. I had asked on an earlier thread if people thought training was given away as a loss leader and profit was made by the stores on the gear sales. Everyone who responded said yes. So where does that leave an instructor. no money in training divers, so they work a full time job and teach partime if they want to teach. Then the shops need the instructors to rush the students thru so they can make some money on gears sales. As I see it a conflict of interest. Selling gear to make the profit that could also be made if training wasn't given away. Pushing inadequate gear because thats what they have to sell. If you sit down and figure out hours I would bet most instructors make between $5-$8 to train someone to enter an alien enviroment and at the same time have a huge amount of liability while teaching. My plumber makes around $50 an hour plus materials and he doesn't have someones life in his hands every time he's around the water. Yes the industry needs to look at itself, but I just don't think it's going to change. ;-0

Well enough for now:bonk: :bonk:
Friggincold
:cold:

 

[sharpenu]

Here in this area, the average cost for classes is around $200 for OW. Out of this, the shop/instuctor pays:

$25 to the certifying agency
$40 for the boat for the checkout dives
$25 pool fees
plus the cost of equipment rental/ upkeep
and the books/tables/videos are included as well, that is what? another $40?
That leaves less than $70 per student
The assistant (myself and others) DONATE the time

10 classes/pool sessions at 2 1/2 hours each, plus 3 days of checkout dives means 40 hours of work for an 8-10 student class.
The only way for the shop to make money is to sell gear. You can't blame them for wanting to make money. They have to get $ from somewhere. But there is no excuse for poor training. I think the problem lies with the agency. I know people who are master divers that I was an assistant in the open water class that they were in. I have been assisting for only about 8 months. They are just selling cards. If we don't watch out, we will be a government regulated sport before long.

 

[Bob]

we can't save people from themselves, but the standards for obtaining a card should be more stringent. More class time, more pool time and more open water instruction and dives. I get hooted down every time I mention this, but I think there should be independent examiners that a new diver would go to to demonstrate book knowledge and practical skills in the water. If he can't demonstrate both to the examiners satisfaction, no c card. It's that simple. Unfortunately, I can think of many instances just as Sharpenu as mentioned, of divers diving without a clue as to the depth of dive or time of dive. Rarely do I see dive tables on a boat any more, unless I have mine out. I was looking at my RDP on a recent dive and a guy asked me what I was looking at. We have a industry wide problem in our certification process. I hope the dive industry fixes it before the governmrnt has to step in.:tree:Bob

 

[Arduous]

I agree with all of you. The standards are two low for open water certs and just like we
see drivers on the road every day that shouldn't be driving, so do we see divers that just
shouldn't be in the water at all. ( Never mind diving in it ).

Dive Safe .....................Arduous

 

[Drew Sailbum]

First, let me offer the odd opinion that training standards for open water divers are "about right."

I taught sailing and windsurfing in a college sailing program for 5 years. The point wasn't to make more Dennis Conners or Robby Naishs, it was to teach safe operation of the equipment. Beginners were taught using basic equipment, and as skills developed advanced lessons were available on advanced equipment.

Perhaps the best analogy to scuba is that we taught navigation (coastal, GPS, and even stellar nav) as a part of the operation of our cruising sailboats. For those who wanted to learn this material, it was available in a specialized class. But for our general club operations for beginners, we did not teach this - it was unnecessary for our needs.

Similarly, in scuba, only rudimentary navigation is taught at a beginning level. Those wanting a deeper understanding of the topic can opt to pay for the added training.

While it may seem desirable to have added training for new divers, not all training is possible in all areas. No ice diving here in South Carolina, though I could agree that such training is needed in Norway. No dry suit diving in Palau (think roasted hot pocket), but many U.K. divers do their open water certs in dry suits. No altitude diving procedures were taught in the 3 months I was in Malta, but this material ends up in open water classes in Colorado. I could continue, but the horse is dead by now.

I believe that the material taught in an open water certification, by necessity, will not cover all possibilities. Where dive professionals need to do a better job is imparting an understanding of the limitations of the training to their students.

Finally, an (constructive?) idea to mull over. Malta regulates the dive industry. All dive shop dives there must be led by an instructor in the water. The only way to dive with a buddy and without an instructor is to obtain a government issued permit. To get your permit you must submit results of a dive physical (admittedly superficial) and proof of training to an "advanced" level (PADI or NAUI AOW, CMAS 2star, etc...). Records of such permits are kept at the hospital for access by hyperbaric chamber technicians.

 

[VTWarrenG]

Drew,

Good points -- except that I don't see anyone here suggesting that ice diving, dry suit diving, altitude diving, or navigation be taught in OW classes.

We were suggesting that reading tables, using computers, planning dives, clearing masks, doing safety stops, buddy breathing, and other tasks (all of which are decidedly necessary to establish a basic level of safety) should be taught thoroughly in OW.

We were lamenting that it seems many OW certified divers don't seem to have a grasp of these basic underwater survival skills.

- Warren