Pony vs. Doubles -- Philosophical Difference?

[mwilding]

??? Why do the doubles proponents always want to skew the playing field in their favor? If you are going to use double HP 100's then give the singles diver one too. Otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges.

[...]

but you do haul along an extra 80 and my point was that the single/pony diver has (roughly) 43cuft after dive two.

[...]

or you could look at it that you are lugging that extra 80 just to have access to that 13cuft. The doubles user hauls 2 80's and the pony diver hauls an 80 and a 30.

My point exactly. The doubles diver enjoys equal redundancy and more efficient use of his breathing gas at the expense of the pain in the ass of hauling around a set of doubles topside.

I don't see one as inherently better than the other. Each side has benefits and drawbacks and you have to decide for yourself based on your priorities and what is available to you.

 

[gcbryan]

This subject has less to do with pony users versus doubles users and more to do with one philosophy versus any other philosophy.

I'm pretty sure you could do a search on this board of past threads/posts and find hundreds of posts from one group explaining why one shouldn't use ponies. I'm pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find any threads by any other group explaining why the use of doubles is a bad thing. You would be hard pressed to find a thread where anyone would even care.

There are legitimate posts I'm sure where someone used to use a pony but no longer does but that's usually because they started technical diving and now have doubles anyway and want to stay with one gear configuration.

All of the other arguments revolve around things that are convenient once you already have doubles...don't have to change out tanks, have use of all of the gas, etc. These are convenient aspects of having doubles but are not reasons to go to doubles in the first place. You go to doubles when you need to...deeper, longer dives. This is when the inconvenient aspect of doubles is now outweighed by the convenient aspects. Until then, to many people, the proper use of a pony does the same thing with less inconvenient aspects.

By slinging a pony bottle one doesn't become someone who now can't be part of a "team". You just have team member who happens to have an extra bottle under their arm to be ignored or used as one sees fit.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

??? Why do the doubles proponents always want to skew the playing field in their favor? If you are going to use double HP 100's then give the singles diver one too. Otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges.



but you do haul along an extra 80 and my point was that the single/pony diver has (roughly) 43cuft after dive two.



or you could look at it that you are lugging that extra 80 just to have access to that 13cuft. The doubles user hauls 2 80's and the pony diver hauls an 80 and a 30.

You are ignoring the point that the doubles diver has the edge in terms of reserve on dive one and gives up little even with small doubles on dive two and retains the edge on dive two if they are smart about their selection of doubles.

Why would a doubles diver invest in double AL 80's when double 100's weigh the same? Why handicap them with double 80's that virtually no doubles divers use? Just to keep the balance sheet in your favor? No. Lets not get hung up on apples to apples and instead focus on the real world.

And you have to admit the average pony diver is not usually using a 30 - more like a 19 or 13, so you are in effect trying to give the edge to the single tank diver already with a superior sized but larger than most real life situations pony.

The weight difference between double HP 100's and an 80 with a 30 cu ft pony is about 20 lbs once all is said and done, so the weight penalty is not as bad as many would assume in your chosen single tank configuration.

I can also tell you from experience that when you are in the water with a single tank diver with pony and things go wrong at 100 feet or so (poor viz, can't find the up line, don't want to drift away from the boat, etc) that single tank diver (who is even someone else's buddy) ends up sticking to me in my doubles like glue. It is a case of the "you can never have too much gas" philosophy trumping just about every other philosophy when things go south and your AL 80 and pony start looking small.

And as pointed out in the post above, doubles offer a degree of flexibility and capability that cannot be approached with a single and pony. I know - over the last 25 years I have moved from a single to a single and small pony to a single and large pony to independent doubes to manifolded doubles, as each step offerred more safety, flexibility and capability than the previous step with minimal weight penalties when you consider the advantages gained. It is just a normal progression and if you are not there yet, thats fine, just don't get the mistaken impression that you are going to be able to add any elightenment to those who are already there.

Larry

 

[divad]

BTW, what generated the question is that I do work with some people who have been "critical" of me for diving in doubles but who, themselves dive with a pony and/or have no problems of diving with someone with a pony. (OK, maybe it is ME to which they object and not the doubles -- but.....)

So that is why the question regarding a "philosophical" difference between the two.

Also, in my case, perhaps the "philosophical" difference is that diving doubles means a hog rig (or at least BP/W) (BP/W-Hog = arrogant tech diver who doesn't "look like us") while a pony can be dived with a "traditional" single-tank BCD.

If a diver says something in the forest and no a$$holes hear it, is he still wrong?

 

[tomboyy]

You are ignoring the point that the doubles diver has the edge in terms of reserve on dive one and gives up little even with small doubles on dive two and retains the edge on dive two if they are smart about their selection of doubles.

Why would a doubles diver invest in double AL 80's when double 100's weigh the same? Why handicap them with double 80's that virtually no doubles divers use? Just to keep the balance sheet in your favor? No. Lets not get hung up on apples to apples and instead focus on the real world.

And you have to admit the average pony diver is not usually using a 30 - more like a 19 or 13, so you are in effect trying to give the edge to the single tank diver already with a superior sized but larger than most real life situations pony.

The weight difference between double HP 100's and an 80 with a 30 cu ft pony is about 20 lbs once all is said and done, so the weight penalty is not as bad as many would assume in your chosen single tank configuration.

I can also tell you from experience that when you are in the water with a single tank diver with pony and things go wrong at 100 feet or so (poor viz, can't find the up line, don't want to drift away from the boat, etc) that single tank diver (who is even someone else's buddy) ends up sticking to me in my doubles like glue. It is a case of the "you can never have too much gas" philosophy trumping just about every other philosophy when things go south and your AL 80 and pony start looking small.

And as pointed out in the post above, doubles offer a degree of flexibility and capability that cannot be approached with a single and pony. I know - over the last 25 years I have moved from a single to a single and small pony to a single and large pony to independent doubes to manifolded doubles, as each step offerred more safety, flexibility and capability than the previous step with minimal weight penalties when you consider the advantages gained. It is just a normal progression and if you are not there yet, thats fine, just don't get the mistaken impression that you are going to be able to add any elightenment to those who are already there.
Larry

OUCHH... SNAP AND SLAM.... undeserved:shocked2:

 

[Garrobo]

It's all I can do to get up with ONE tank let alone TWO. If I thought I needed an extra tank I'd use one like a pony. That way the captain could just hand it over the side to me and I wouldn't have to lug it on my back. Then I could hang it up somewhere and use it as I needed it. If I was going inside a tight wreck or cavern where I WOULD need the extra air or for safety purposes I guess that I would use doubles but I'd need help getting up to jump in and to come aboard.

 

[DennisS]

In recreational diving, by my way of thinking, the pony bottle is used (hopefully never) only for emergency ascent for equipment problems and should never be used to extend the dive. It is not "extra air" but is more like a seat belt in your car - you put it on but hope to never use it.

A bail-out bottle?

 

[Kern]

It is just a normal progression and if you are not there yet, thats fine, just don't get the mistaken impression that you are going to be able to add any elightenment to those who are already there.

Larry

Well, that's 1 opinion. I think it's arrogant BS, but of course that's just another opinion.

 

[dkktsunami]

A bail-out bottle?

Yes, for emergency only.

 

[OH-JJ]

IT is the Same thing, just called differently depending on how you use it:

Pony / Buddy Bottle == Only for use in an emergence.
Stage /Deco Bottle == You plan on using it during a normal part of your dive.