Pony bottles/spare air

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Ahh, you gonna check on me?

As an example it used to be stated explicitly on the Ol Salty IIs website to name one.

---------- Post Merged at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:54 PM ----------

Here you go Grumpy, Straight from the Capt Jim at the Gypsy Blood's website;

"The second is redundant air supply. All divers MUST dive with a pony or stage bottle with a separate regulator, including students. There will be no exceptions to this rule."

This being said how stringently Capt Jim enforces it on all divers with doubles I cannot say, but it is the policy of that boat and a few others. Looks like the Ol Salty IIs website no longer says it but it did when I started diving 5-6 years ago.....

Yes I was going to check on you (trust but verify is one of my favorite sayings). Your decision to dive the configuration is well, you decision. Notice, I did not critic you, although it seemed pretty extreme for rec dives. I do have 33+ years diving experience, including living and diving in the North East US. I am however, far from seeing it all and am still learning. So rather then start a fight, I spent a little time digging for the facts.

I see how you could literally read his policy and came to the conclusion you did, but it still was not consistent with what the dive agencies I am familiar with recommend or my experience, so I contacted Captain Jim directly through his website and asked, "If we are diving doubles with dual regulators and an isolation manifold, is a pony still required in addition to the doubles?"

He kindly responded "No pony require if you are diving double."

My conclusion is if you feel you need triple redundancy, knock yourself out. Stating that is is required by dive boats in the North East US is simply not true. Its more like a redundant gas supply is required by some boats in the NY/NJ area.

 

[je76]

Hi Devon, Ohh, well if we are just having a friendly conversation that is different . Maybe I need to lighten up a bit and will discuss this with our CD and some of the other tek divers that I know and dive with,

I don't see how the value of a properly packaged pony bottle could be outweighed by not having one. I agree with you adding adding adding gear is not the solution and is something that is frequently observed with newer divers. I have seen divers go in with 4 knives, 3 lights and a pony bottle who couldn't find the knives with a road map and didn't even know how to clip the pony off never mind use it properly.

Here are my thoughts -

1) A properly packaged and donned pony bottle offers little danger of entanglement. If it is entangled its placement in front of your body allows you to either easily untangle it, remove it or even cut it away. For that matter in any emergency where it becomes superfluous it can easily be ditched.

2) Typically speaking most problems underwater can be solved if you have the time to solve them. A pony bottle adds that time and may even contribute to keeping a diver calm by reassuring them they have the needed gas should it be required. Of course this could be an illusion but if it keeps you calm in an emergency situation it has already paid for itself by giving you precious moments to think calmly rather than panic. I will confess that I notice an increase in my sac rate diving the pony as to not diving the pony but I have never breathed through an entire set of doubles on deeper recreational dives or on dives with 5-10 minutes of decompression.

3) On a decompression dive (deliberate or not) it could allow for critical extra hang time. Of course this could be compensated for by hanging gas from an equipment line at the back of the boat but this assumes we reach the back of the boat. If I lose a tank (not a reg) in an emergency I could easily hang for an addtl 10-20 minutes from my pony at 20' allowing me to generally do whatever my computer deems appropriate. Additionally if I should lose both tanks (failure at the manifold) than the pony becomes a saver.

4) In the event you are confronted with an out of air diver it can allow you comfortable distance from that diver. A panicked diver is a danger to both themselves and to you and I am not sure I want them attached even to my long hose. A pony can be clipped to them and allow them their own private air source while the two of you do a comfortable ascent and hang (if you need to do one say for decompression obligation). Of course this presupposes that they will be calm enough to take the pony from you but none the less even if they appear calm and take the pony without incident I would still prefer to keep my distance. In the end my responsibility is to bring myself back alive.

5) It can serve dual purposes. A typical Jersey fill is 28% and we usually end up with 26-28% for our back gas. Often we will fill our pony with 30-36%. In an emergency we could still breath off our pony once we have started up the ascent line and if we don't have an emergency we could breath off the pony during a deep stop or during our hang to add an extra safety margin. Maybe the benefit is negligible but it still teaches us the skill to deploy a pony while doing an ascent or on a hang.

5) Any piece of gear that you aren't experienced with, know how to utilize or aren't familiar with is a danger, this can include the very scuba tanks that you put on your back. I understand the concept of minimalism but I would rather ditch an extra light, catch bag or scooter than give up my pony. If one drills with it so that deploying it becomes second nature I believe the danger it presents is outweighed by its value. I personally do every drill with my pony and could locate any gear on my person blind (I am partially blind in one eye so I drill so that I can find all my gear and deploy it blind).

I would also like to discuss side mount (independent doubles) again if I could. When talking about task loading and the like is the supposition that it is better to go without a pony bottle than (in a reg failure situation) to have to hold one's breath while removing one reg from the bad tank and replacing it with the good reg from the other?

What happens if the failure is not the reg but is the tank itself where is your reserve air? In this instance you are doing your ascent on the assumption that a double failure is statistically unlikely.

Again I will confess to not knowing about side mount or ever having dived that configuration but the shortcomings of independent doubles still applies. To me it seems a bit easier to turn on a valve and pull out the reg than it would be to hold my breath while switching regs at depth...but maybe I am wrong.

Extra gear can get you killed. For that matter so can the scuba tank strapped to your back if you don't know how to properly use it... Minimalism in the extreme can also get you killed!

---------- Post Merged at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:59 PM ----------

Grumpy Guy, You caught me. I give up. I will yell at Jim next time I see him for not supporting me and you will get a new email stating that you must have a pony even if you are diving Sea Hunt triples.

P.S. Ronald Reagan was a terrible president who ruined the country, I trusted him but verified that fact.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

^^ Je76,

Not to interrupt your stimulation conversation with Devon Diver, but have you ever considered your terminology. That you are diving a stage rather than a pony since it is not bottom gas?
I am not a technical diver by anybodies standard, but one you are slinging a stage rather than a pony, my perception of what you are trying to accomplish changes.

As for Reagan ruining the country, come on over and visit the pub and we can discuss...

 

[je76]

Hi Grumpy Old Guy, No my terminology is correct.

A stage bottle is used to extend the working portion of your dive in the non-emergency sense of the term. A pony is used in the event of an emergency as a redundant air source. A stage bottle is planned for and will get used during a dive to extend range or increase no decompression time. A pony may not ever get used unless you have an emergency. Sometimes people use the term stage and pony interchangeably but as I was taught they are not the same thing.

In the most technical terms (and as per the Deep Tec manual) you would leave a "staged cylinder" for use at a later point in the dive however as I was trained this is not the best method since in the event that you don't return to that point you no longer have use of that bottle.

Next time I am in Texas I will swing by. Used to have family living in Houston.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Hi Grumpy Old Guy, No my terminology is correct.

A stage bottle is used to extend the working portion of your dive in the non-emergency sense of the term. A pony is used in the event of an emergency as a redundant air source. A stage bottle is planned for and will get used during a dive to extend range or increase no decompression time. A pony may not ever get used unless you have an emergency. Sometimes people use the term stage and pony interchangeably but as I was taught they are not the same thing.

In the most technical terms (and as per the Deep Tec manual) you would leave a "staged cylinder" for use at a later point in the dive however as I was trained this is not the best method since in the event that you don't return to that point you no longer have use of that bottle.

Next time I am in Texas I will swing by. Used to have family living in Houston.

I would love to have visitors, but be aware I am in Amarillo, which is like 600 miles from Houston. Lucky for me I spend lots of time in So Cal or NH where diving is decent.

The communications issue is that you are in fact using the same bottle for dual purposes and neither the popular definitions of a pony or a stage really fit well (I think stage fits better, but what the heck).

In point 5 you state "....and if we don't have an emergency we could breath off the pony during a deep stop or during our hang to add an extra safety margin...." which sure sounds like a planned use of a hot mix which would be a stage. This contradicts your statement above about a pony being used for for an emergency only (which I agree with, along with a lot of the other stuff you posted).

 

[flots am]

I would also like to discuss side mount (independent doubles) again if I could. When talking about task loading and the like is the supposition that it is better to go without a pony bottle than (in a reg failure situation) to have to hold one's breath while removing one reg from the bad tank and replacing it with the good reg from the other?

I'm not sure where this is coming from. At no time is there a reason to be switching regs around with side-mount.

Each tank has a reg. Each tank contains the same gas. You switch between the tanks periodically to maintain even gas usage.

If you have two tanks on side-mount, each tank has it's own first and second stage. If one fails, the other tank contains just about the same amount of gas as the failed tank, and assuming you planned and executed your dive correctly, the remaining tank contains all the gas you need to do a safe ascent.

Unless you have planned or executed the dive poorly, there is never a reason to switch first stages between tank valves, even with an equipment failure.

flots.

 

[DevonDiver]

Unless you have planned or executed the dive poorly, there is never a reason to switch first stages between tank valves, even with an equipment failure.

To be considering a reg switch between sidemount cylinders, you're really dealing with major issues, probably in an overhead environment.

It'd require a catastrophic regulator failure - a mere free-flow still permits feather breathing - although the diver may prefer a reg-switch if an extended swim in hazardous conditions made the switch preferable. Beyond the catastrophic regulator failure, you'd also need some circumstances that conspired to blow your gas plan. That can happen - a substantial delay in exit, grossly elevated SAC etc. Either way, we're talking about very specific circumstances and a 'chain' of issues. Having said that, issues do tend to arise in chains...

I don't see how the value of a properly packaged pony bottle could be outweighed by not having one. I agree with you adding adding adding gear is not the solution...

I wouldn't dispute the value of a pony. My observations/opinions are merely in the context of carrying a pony when you otherwise have a redundant gas source - i.e. doubles.

Redundancy is good. Redundancy of redundancy is unnecessary.

Assuming strong team/buddy protocols are also in place... you could even say it is redundancy of redundancy of redundancy.

For a recreational diver, who retains direct access to the surface, double tanks is already a massive safeguard. Safety stop isn't mandatory, so you're never more than 4 mins from the surface. Carrying superfluous gear - causing increased negative buoyancy is a bigger hazard to that emergency ascent - especially if loss of regulator deprived you of BCD inflation.

For a technical diver, a pony is unlikely to be of substantial help on the bottom portion of the dive... air consumption at technical depths would dictate the need for a large cylinder. In addition to deco tanks, that'd be a significant imposition in gear loading. The technical diver only needs to ascend to their first gas-switch/deco stop anyway... and with prudent dive planning/deco gas choice, that shouldn't be too far. Again, gas management/planning should ensure that travel is achievable even given a catastrophic failure. Once the gas-switch onto deco is achieved, the pony becomes irrelevant anyway (unless you were carrying pony redundancy for each gas mix you used?!?).

If the (technical) dive were extreme enough to warrant triplicate redundancy - then you're firmly within the realms of considering the use of support divers. That'd be a far better option, to reduce equipment and task loading for the primary diver/s.

 

[Rich Keller]

Hey folks can I ask why spare air bottles.pony bottles etc don't just run their hoses from their first stage right alongside/fixed to your main hose to your reg and into a Y connector to your regulator. Ie have tap that takes the air from your main bottle then flip the lever to go onto your emergency air. Wouldn't that uncomplicate hoses etc?

It can be done but you will lose redundancy somewhere along the line using a Y valve. The only way I can think of to do something like this would be with an oxygen/acetylene type of hose. This type of hose has two hoses held together by the rubber of the outer casing of each hose so they can be pulled apart easily if needed but this adds another step in an emergency that you do not want. This would allow two tanks on one end and two second stages at the other end running through a tandem hose. The other problem is having the pony bleeding air into the hose without you knowing. The solution to that is to have the valve on the pony turned off until it is needed but again this adds another step in an emergency that you do not want.

 

[je76]

Okay Devon et all, Here I am three weeks and 6 North Atlantic dives ( I have been blown out twice) after this discussion

I discussed this at length with our CD and ironically he was in partial agreement with you assertions. A properly planned and executed recreational dive on doubles with a planned reserve has no need for a bailout/pony bottle. He did however state that if the diver was more comfortable and willing to accept the risk of the extra encumberance and task loading that the bottle carries with it he does not necessarily discourage its accompanying any diver he has trained, especially Tec divers.

Ironically when I brought this up to some non-instructor buddies the best they could come up with is, "More is better" and I found myself actually arguing your points as devil's advocate.

On 4 of these dives I brought along my bailout (not being used as a stage or deco bottle) as well as my usual compliment of speargun and while running a reel (viz < 5' on two of the six dives) and found that I was considerably less comfortable than without the bailout/pony. In fact during one dive without my bailout/pony and without my spear gun my 40 minute dive at 70' resulted in a considerably increased sense of comfort and dramatically lower sac rate.

I have no doubt that in an emergency I would be more comfortable and better able to handle said emergency if I were less encumbered.

No doubt get me wrong I am not giving up my speargun of BWOD so lets not go crazy but after evaluating this in water I believe that less gear and more shut down drills are the remedy to a bailout/pony at less than 100'. Not yet willing to get rid of it for the great depth due to a host of other issues.

 

[letonac]

I think there is no doubt about pony tank. It is addition to safety and safeness is the most important for diver. In my country is not very often in use pony tanks - we have been teached to use body system in air emergency situation, which is ok if body is trained and calm.
I am planning to improve my diving safenees by using the pony bottle but the only possibility to learn how to deal with it is to take basic tech course or NITROX II (CMAS) which I am not interesting in at the moment. Also, I agree with the guy who said that the gear that you aren't experienced with or aren't familiar with is a danger. So, my question is where to start learning? What should I looking for? Is there any literature available on internet? I do not care about agency - just give me the knowladge. I did NITROX I and drysuit course but I,ve never been faced with pony tanks procedures. Thanks