pony bottle question

[Superlyte27]

Hmm, rules rules rules.......

So its the scuba industry that requires vis done each year.....DOT only requires it at hydro....

As per luxfer's inspection guide it requires tanks be visual inspected at least once in a 12 month period.

Now this is a bit off topic, but interesting none the less seeing as how people here are pretty against breaking the rules.....how many have a O2 cleaned luxfer tank.....how many dive nitrox in a luxfer tank......technically from their inspection manual, this is a no go "To eliminate the risk of fire and serious injury, never fill a Luxfer scuba cylinder with pure oxygen or oxygen-enriched air mixture or any other special gas"

No where in the manual does it say that you can o2 clean a luxfer cylinder.

(catalina is a lot different rules surprisingly)

So it seems we really only partially follow the rules.

That being said, would I VIP a pony bottle every year......yeah prolly, just because I can do it myself. But I would not be concerned by it going over by a few months or so.

Luxfer's come O2 cleaned from the factory. As do their valves. I sell more tanks than anyone. Each luxfer comes with a nice little green label that basically says "this tank is O2 cleaned by luxfer"

 

[Bob DBF]

Anyway, I haven't used the pony since then and was somewhat curious as to whether it would be wise to take it on a dive say 3-4 years after the visual, with the 5 year hydro date expired (even though, as pointed out, it was still full and would not need a re-fill if I were willing to breathe 3-4 year old air). Just got me thinking-- You have a pony but hardly ever use it-- do you still get it visualed & hydroed every 1 & 5 years --or do you take care of that just before the next time you do use it, or do you just use the air in it then get the visual/hydro/refill? .

Although I don't remember if it was 6 or 8 or whatever year old air, I will breathe down a tank before I'll think of draining it, just yankee thrift I guess. I own my own tanks and take care of them, so I know how good they are; therefore I won't get a tank checked before I use the air in it.


Bob
----------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[NAM001]

As far as teh DOT is concerned, they are only involved in the comercial transportation of presurized vessels. They do not allow the commercial presurazation of a tank that will be commercially transported if it is out of hydro date. This tells me that for commercial transfer you will not put a tank through a transition of mt to full psi in a non certified vessel and commercially transport it. The word commercially is a big stunbling block and loophole in the process. I can fill an out of hydro tank as a non comercial entity and transport it in a non commercial mannor and not violate DOT. Many threads exist concerning what is commercial and what is not. I am not willing to weigh in on what is or is not because of the wide difference of opinion of the dot rules interpretation. I am not an authority any more than those that have thier opinions of can and cant as they opine based on the libility ins requirements and other non dot based conclusions. Many areas of dispute involve transport by a paid driver vs non paid driver, transport of a quantity of, or $ value being transported, others say ie that a shop hauling tanks to a site for certification dive is a comercial transport based on thier use in a money making venture, and that any money making venture falls under DOT regs.
The only thing that is clear to us laymen is that there are endless scenerios and well as endless interpretations as to who is commercial and who is not. The other consistancy is that insurers will say at all times you will act as if you are DOT bound.

I think that the most prudent course to take is the conservative one and comply with the hydro requirements and the vis requirements which are by the way not an anual thing. If i remember the vis requirement is anual for tanks that are filled up to twice a week for the years period and those that are filled more often require more frequent vis schedule. So its more like vis every 100 fills. Even that is subject to whether it is a rule or recommendation.

Finally we can not forget that CGA has thier recommendations/regs/input to things also. Often what is ok with one agince is not under the other agency. So the odds of any 2 people in a discussion talking apples to apples is probably pretty slim.

 

[Superlyte27]

KWS, spell check is your friend man.

 

[FoxHound]

Luxfer's come O2 cleaned from the factory. As do their valves. I sell more tanks than anyone. Each luxfer comes with a nice little green label that basically says "this tank is O2 cleaned by luxfer"

That may be so, but one must follow the luxfer manual. This is a direct quote from their inspection manual page 3 "To eliminate the risk of fire and serious injury, never fill a Luxfer scuba cylinder with pure oxygen or oxygen-enriched air mixture or any other special gas."

Yet luxfer advertise their tanks as nitrox ready and have 02 cleaning guide lines listed on the website (not in a manual)....so which protocol do you follow.....what happens if you have an incident while filling a luxfer tank when it comes 02 clean from the factory. who do you think will be liable......

Anyways, I'm just trying to say is that rules are in place for every aspect of diving, yet we are super anal about some, and pretty lax on others

---------- Post added March 9th, 2013 at 09:03 AM ----------

I think that the most prudent course to take is the conservative one and comply with the hydro requirements and the vis requirements which are by the way not an anual thing. If i remember the vis requirement is anual for tanks that are filled up to twice a week for the years period and those that are filled more often require more frequent vis schedule. So its more like vis every 100 fills. Even that is subject to whether it is a rule or recommendation.

Depends on the manufacturers recommendation:

This is from Luxfer

HEAVY SERVICE. If the cylinder is used in heavy service then it should be
inspected every four months.
“Heavy service” means any one or more of the following:
1. Cylinders being filled or “topped off” five or more times per week;
2. Rental cylinders in use during the ‘season’ and ‘off-season’ times;
3. Cylinders used wherever damage is more likely than in normal use or where the
care and/or maintenance is slightly below recommended care.

And this is Catalina
A cylinder subjected to an average of one fill a day or more is considered a cylinder subjected to high use. A cylinder subjected to high use should be visually inspected, both externally and internally, a minimum of every six months.


so it really depends on what brand you use, I don't have my steel tank manuals on line so I didnt dig through them but I'm sure is along the same lines

 

[Kharon]

My take - vis is a dive shop cash cow. I do my own and get vis stickers online - mostly. I've got fill adapters for my H2Odyessy that fits either my 13cf Catalyna or my 27cf LP Faber and I'm going to get a tank to tank whip with gauge to fill the Faber when I've got a regular valve on it. My LDS refused to get my PST LP 72cf plus tested because the ree wasn't stamped on the tank - even though I had the ree (pissed because I didn't buy a Worthington 80 from him ($350) but instead found a deal on PST 80 & 72 for $100 both tanks - ree stamped on the 80 so he couldn't refuse). I'm sorry but I believe wholeheartedly that vis, reg service, valve service, most certifications, and a lot of other SCUBA hype is solely to allow the dive shop to make money.

Yeah, you must take proper care of your equipment. If you get a tank or reg flood you'ld be crazy to not have the equipment serviced. Same with any equipment that hasn't been used recently (>1 yr). If i'm using the pony, reg, BC, or any of my other equipment on a regular basis I WILL notice any variation and investigate further. I regularly check my 1st stage output with an IP guage. If I need servicing I will get it done. Every year - nope.

---------- Post added March 9th, 2013 at 11:47 AM ----------

Luxfer's come O2 cleaned from the factory. As do their valves. I sell more tanks than anyone. Each luxfer comes with a nice little green label that basically says "this tank is O2 cleaned by luxfer"

My 27cf LP Luxfer didnt. Did I get ripped off?

 

[Superlyte27]

My take - vis is a dive shop cash cow. I do my own and get vis stickers online - mostly. I've got fill adapters for my H2Odyessy that fits either my 13cf Catalyna or my 27cf LP Faber and I'm going to get a tank to tank whip with gauge to fill the Faber when I've got a regular valve on it. My LDS refused to get my PST LP 72cf plus tested because the ree wasn't stamped on the tank - even though I had the ree (pissed because I didn't buy a Worthington 80 from him ($350) but instead found a deal on PST 80 & 72 for $100 both tanks - ree stamped on the 80 so he couldn't refuse). I'm sorry but I believe wholeheartedly that vis, reg service, valve service, most certifications, and a lot of other SCUBA hype is solely to allow the dive shop to make money.

Yeah, you must take proper care of your equipment. If you get a tank or reg flood you'ld be crazy to not have the equipment serviced. Same with any equipment that hasn't been used recently (>1 yr). If i'm using the pony, reg, BC, or any of my other equipment on a regular basis I WILL notice any variation and investigate further. I regularly check my 1st stage output with an IP guage. If I need servicing I will get it done. Every year - nope.

---------- Post added March 9th, 2013 at 11:47 AM ----------



My 27cf LP Luxfer didnt. Did I get ripped off?

Depends on how you order them. I've heard other people have ordered tanks before that didn't possess the same sticker that comes with the tanks we order. I guess there might be two different ways to order them. Ours always come with them.

As far as regs and vis's being a cash cow for LDS's...
There's nothing more annoying and tedious than rebuilding regulators. If you figure in the parts and labor, it's probably about 10 bucks per hour the store is making, big friggin deal. On a vis, we charge 15 bucks. That's VIP, Orings and Air Fill. Again, big friggin' deal. Most of the time it takes less than 10 minutes after we bleed the tank down. I could care less if I do any VIS's or Regulator rebuilds. These are not that difficult to do and if you have several tanks and regulators I highly suggest you take the class to do your own.

Thankfully I've taken a pretty big back step on the day to day operations of the dive store. But we've never been one to sell you crap just because we need to stay open. An example of this would be the three Spare Air's that have been sitting on our counter for sale for three years. When people try to buy them, we openly tell them that Spare Air's suck and are a waste of money. But that's another story.

The secret is care about the customer more than you care about your bottom line, and you will have a solid bottom line. That's all there is to it. When you start caring about how much money you are making more than you care about the friend you might make walking in the door, your bottom line is going to suffer. It's worked for our store for over 40 years.

 

[-hh]

...
Depends on the manufacturers recommendation:

This is from Luxfer

HEAVY SERVICE. If the cylinder is used in heavy service then it should be
inspected every four months.
“Heavy service” means any one or more of the following:
1. Cylinders being filled or “topped off” five or more times per week;
2. Rental cylinders in use during the ‘season’ and ‘off-season’ times;
3. Cylinders used wherever damage is more likely than in normal use or where the
care and/or maintenance is slightly below recommended care.

And this is Catalina
A cylinder subjected to an average of one fill a day or more is considered a cylinder subjected to high use. A cylinder subjected to high use should be visually inspected, both externally and internally, a minimum of every six months.


so it really depends on what brand you use, I don't have my steel tank manuals on line so I didnt dig through them but I'm sure is along the same lines

Frankly, some of this sounds like a big bag of lawyer language to avoid potential liability from their product being used by commercial outfits.

For example, the math on Luxfer's ... 5x/week ... but without any identification of for how many weeks before the requirement is triggered. That technically means that if I dive with my own tanks every weekday for but ONE week ... yes, all of 5 fills ... I'm technically not in compliance if I only VIP'ed annually.

Similarly, even if the intent was to be averaging 5 fills/week for week upon week such as at a resort dive op, 5 fills/week for 4 months is still only looking at 5 * 17 weeks = 85 fills.

What it really comes down to is that they know that most dive ops don't pull VIPs four times per year on their tanks, so if anything happens, the tank manufacturer can point to this as the basis for them not being liable. If there really was a strong correlation between fills and the basis for a VIP, then the manufacturer's guidelines should state that flat out: "VIP after every XXX fills".


-hh

 

[FoxHound]

Frankly, some of this sounds like a big bag of lawyer language to avoid potential liability from their product being used by commercial outfits.

For example, the math on Luxfer's ... 5x/week ... but without any identification of for how many weeks before the requirement is triggered. That technically means that if I dive with my own tanks every weekday for but ONE week ... yes, all of 5 fills ... I'm technically not in compliance if I only VIP'ed annually.

Similarly, even if the intent was to be averaging 5 fills/week for week upon week such as at a resort dive op, 5 fills/week for 4 months is still only looking at 5 * 17 weeks = 85 fills.

What it really comes down to is that they know that most dive ops don't pull VIPs four times per year on their tanks, so if anything happens, the tank manufacturer can point to this as the basis for them not being liable. If there really was a strong correlation between fills and the basis for a VIP, then the manufacturer's guidelines should state that flat out: "VIP after every XXX fills".


-hh

That's exactly what it is. I was having this same discussion with another. Things are worded to absolve the manufacturer from any wrong doing were something to go wrong.

Like my other example above luxfer's manual says not to FILL a tank with O2 or any enriched gas mix.....yet go on their website and you can find instructions for o2 cleaning, and like was pointed out, their tanks can come o2 cleaned. So you can have a nitrox tank....you just can't fill it.

So if something goes wrong....they are sticking the middle man with the blame...because it can never be the end users fault.....people never do anything wrong with their own gear......

 

[CT-Rich]

A full scuba tank is an unexploded bomb. They can and do kill. Saying it is about lawyers and a cash cow discards the fact that there are serious idiots out there that put others at risk. The reason it seems excessive is because it is effective and we seldom hear about accidents that don't happen. If they blew up all the time we would be hang a different conversation.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2013 at 10:08 AM ----------

Inspection after XXX fills would allow fools to game the system. Better to pay the money, be annoyed rather than kill the occassional tank jockey.