I don't know your background but...IMO you don't need a pony or doubles until you grow/train into the dives that require such equipment. Strapping a bunch of stuff onto your rig just adds complexity that will couse more trouble than it saves. When I dive a single tank and want some redundancy I use an H-valve. It's functional without adding much but without practicing shutdowns it is still no help.
Pony Bottle pros & Cons
- Thread starter JT2
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Adding equipment before training is counter productive when it comes to safety enhancement...
Dive well within the parameters of your training.
Mike,
Youve brought up a good point about the actual need for redundancy. In your opinion at what point does it make sense?
The reason I am considering a pony is for east coast wreck dives (non-penetrating at this point). Most of these dives are at or beyond 100 fsw. An emergency ascent from 100 + fsw is dangerous without an alternate air source. While you could depend on your buddy for an alternate air source he may be busy with Mr. Murphy, or he may even be the reason that you have a problem. So it seems to me that at this point the trade off of adding the complexity of a pony bottle for the safety of a second independent air source is a good one. The pony would be for bail out only and ideally would never be used.
An as far as training goes, doesnt it make sense to include the pony bottle in the training i.e. wreck diver?
Thanks,
Mike
Youve brought up a good point about the actual need for redundancy. In your opinion at what point does it make sense?
The reason I am considering a pony is for east coast wreck dives (non-penetrating at this point). Most of these dives are at or beyond 100 fsw. An emergency ascent from 100 + fsw is dangerous without an alternate air source. While you could depend on your buddy for an alternate air source he may be busy with Mr. Murphy, or he may even be the reason that you have a problem. So it seems to me that at this point the trade off of adding the complexity of a pony bottle for the safety of a second independent air source is a good one. The pony would be for bail out only and ideally would never be used.
An as far as training goes, doesnt it make sense to include the pony bottle in the training i.e. wreck diver?
Thanks,
Mike
MikeS,
This is my opinion and it may rub some the wrong way. I believe 100 feet is in general to deep for the vast majority and standard recreational equipment. Lets face it you don't have much no-stop time and your a long way from the surface if something goes wrong. In this situation the margin for error is small. On such a dive I prefer some redundancy. However, I would also prefer a bottle of O2 or at least 50% for deco and some (I won't argue the logic) would spike the bottom gas with some Helium. Now we have a low stress low risk truely enjoyable dive. My advice would be to get into an Advanced Nitrox level class with the agency of your choice. Now a 100 ft wreck dive will be well within the limits of your training. If you don't have much no-stop time, who cares. You will have the gasses, equipment and the confidence.
Mike
This is my opinion and it may rub some the wrong way. I believe 100 feet is in general to deep for the vast majority and standard recreational equipment. Lets face it you don't have much no-stop time and your a long way from the surface if something goes wrong. In this situation the margin for error is small. On such a dive I prefer some redundancy. However, I would also prefer a bottle of O2 or at least 50% for deco and some (I won't argue the logic) would spike the bottom gas with some Helium. Now we have a low stress low risk truely enjoyable dive. My advice would be to get into an Advanced Nitrox level class with the agency of your choice. Now a 100 ft wreck dive will be well within the limits of your training. If you don't have much no-stop time, who cares. You will have the gasses, equipment and the confidence.
Mike
Great day!
Within the realm of recreational, non-technical, non-penetration, no-mandatory-stop diving in good conditions - I do believe that's the intent of the original question - carrying a pony for an emergency redundant gas supply for an ascent is a perfectly viable option. It is light-weight, easy to carry (I do recommend clipping it up front rather than on the tank), easy to use, easy to hand off or to jettison...
There just simply isn't any significant downside to carrying one if you want to. Just do it, and let the naysayers shake their heads in wonder... or whatever.
Rick
Within the realm of recreational, non-technical, non-penetration, no-mandatory-stop diving in good conditions - I do believe that's the intent of the original question - carrying a pony for an emergency redundant gas supply for an ascent is a perfectly viable option. It is light-weight, easy to carry (I do recommend clipping it up front rather than on the tank), easy to use, easy to hand off or to jettison...
There just simply isn't any significant downside to carrying one if you want to. Just do it, and let the naysayers shake their heads in wonder... or whatever.
Rick
Not much no stop recreational diving past 100 with or without a pony.
Aviatrr
Contributor
As I stated originally, I feel that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks for manifolded doubles....and I did not recommend independent doubles. I do, however, feel that if a person plans to solo dive in manifolded doubles, a stage bottle that will allow a safe exit/ascent is mandatory. Sometimes it's not possible to keep your doubles out of contact with hard surfaces....such as in a tight restriction in a cave. It is also possible that a manifold will start leaking with no impact just because it was improperly assembled and there is stress on the manifold in a manner they are not designed to withstand. Maybe somebody has been lugging their tanks around by the manifold and weakened it. Lots of possibilities. As I said....possible? Yes. Likely? No.
I feel that with a buddy, that risk is covered by having another gas supply should the worst occur.....but if solo, the stage is the other gas supply. With independent doubles, the chance of losing gas or access to the gas from BOTH cylinders is slim to none. Overall, the manifolded doubles have the advantage in my opinion.
I know you don't dive solo, and you probably think that anybody that dives solo is stupid and endangering themselves....but there are those of us that know the risks, don't think it's that dangerous if properly equipped, and choose to do so.
Mike
Aviatrr
Contributor
It's not that I feel that the isolation manifold is not sufficient redundancy for most diving....but there is the chance of the manifold giving way, and if it does, all your gas will be gone in very short order. If you are with a buddy, commence air sharing and exit/surface. If you are alone, you should have another air supply.
If you are diving doubles, even with a drysuit....you are more than likely negatively buoyant. If your air supply goes away, and you can't breathe, inflate your BC, or inflate your drysuit.....you're in a world of hurt unless you are positively buoyant when the loss occurs with a clear ascent to the surface. If you are in mandatory deco, you may survive the trip to the surface, but not the trip to the chamber.
I choose to minimize such a risk by carrying a stage if on a solo dive.
Mike
Rockhound
Guest
as to pony bottles slung under the arm, there is one negative:
sometimes carrying one around is something of a drag....literally. Heck, I carry a camera and a light and I often need my "front" clear to facilitate taking photos. The only place to carry a bottle for me is along side my primary tank (however I don't go into overhead environments).
However, I agree with the premise that 100' open and deeper dives on single tanks, on air, without redundancy and with no plans to deco or equipment to handle unplanned deco is riskier than many rec trained divers think (and I am a REC diver, not a TEK diver).
But, then again, in the past I made a LOT of dives in the 100 to 120' range on air, planned as non deco, but with safety stops. In hindsight, an awful lot of them were really deco dives with forced stops, when the dive was just too good to give up and I had a ton of air.
Some of these posts have given me food for thought. thanks.
I will agree however, that a diver needs to get a full set of skills established over a number of dives before the even CONSIDER going to doubles or other more complex arrangments. Heck, novice divers have their hands full just managing their simple rigs in shallower depths.
sometimes carrying one around is something of a drag....literally. Heck, I carry a camera and a light and I often need my "front" clear to facilitate taking photos. The only place to carry a bottle for me is along side my primary tank (however I don't go into overhead environments).
However, I agree with the premise that 100' open and deeper dives on single tanks, on air, without redundancy and with no plans to deco or equipment to handle unplanned deco is riskier than many rec trained divers think (and I am a REC diver, not a TEK diver).
But, then again, in the past I made a LOT of dives in the 100 to 120' range on air, planned as non deco, but with safety stops. In hindsight, an awful lot of them were really deco dives with forced stops, when the dive was just too good to give up and I had a ton of air.
Some of these posts have given me food for thought. thanks.
I will agree however, that a diver needs to get a full set of skills established over a number of dives before the even CONSIDER going to doubles or other more complex arrangments. Heck, novice divers have their hands full just managing their simple rigs in shallower depths.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
There are those dead set against them and those who think they are wonderful... I am in-between the two.
Good: redundant... never have had MINE tangled... cheap... easy to carry... required by some dive boats for certain dives.
Bad: false sense of security... some people learn to depend on that gas to finish their dive... although I never tangled, it can happen... complicates things (three secondaries)... more crap to keep up with.
I do own 2, 19 cf ponies... but I rarely dive with them. Most of the divers who use them, rely on them not as a bail out, but as part of their usable air. I hate to be seen as such, so I leave mine in the truck UNLESS the boat requires one to dive a certain wreck. My pony mount is the Pony Tamer from Reef Scuba ( www.reefscuba.com ), and it works well. As I am outfitting my 120s with H valves and am contemplating doubles, I will probably be selling both in the not too distant future. They served their purpose, and it's time to move on.
Good: redundant... never have had MINE tangled... cheap... easy to carry... required by some dive boats for certain dives.
Bad: false sense of security... some people learn to depend on that gas to finish their dive... although I never tangled, it can happen... complicates things (three secondaries)... more crap to keep up with.
I do own 2, 19 cf ponies... but I rarely dive with them. Most of the divers who use them, rely on them not as a bail out, but as part of their usable air. I hate to be seen as such, so I leave mine in the truck UNLESS the boat requires one to dive a certain wreck. My pony mount is the Pony Tamer from Reef Scuba ( www.reefscuba.com ), and it works well. As I am outfitting my 120s with H valves and am contemplating doubles, I will probably be selling both in the not too distant future. They served their purpose, and it's time to move on.
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