Pony bottle configuration

[MASS-Diver]

Well, with this board you never know if posts like this are divers logging on with madeup user names just to prove their point or show how clever they are........but, in the case this is legit I will respond as a supporter of ponies in some cases.

Problems with your proposed rig:

120al is a huge tank, there is a reason why so few people dive them.

20al pony is too small, somone under stress can suck one down pretty fast.

You want to go into a wreck with a backmounted pony? Good luck, wrecks love to grab divers and by backmounting you've created a channel that you can't get at, that will cause a nasty entagalment sooner or later.

In terms of the odd-ball hose stuff, if you are a novice why not learn the right way then make your own modfications once you have mastered the standard way of doing things? Being able to inflate your BCD is not a big deal if you are weighted right. And not putting a secondary on your main tank, all I can say to that is WOW.

Most tech divers today don't like ponies, but, as evident by the DIR III video, there is nothing wrong with carrying a 40 or 80al pony stage stlye on certain dives. I think "deep" 80-100' dives that are non-deco dives are a an appropriate application of ponines. At this depth for such a short time, doubles can be considered overkill, but, in case you lose your buddy or the sky falls, it's nice to have a redundant air source in a pony.

 

[RICHinNC]

Tank...

If I read you correctly....your BC is rigged like my SeaQuest where I have an Air Source configuration and in an emergency situation I would give over..(probably have ripped out of my mouth)...my primary reg and I would switch to the Air Source.

I have dived the Atlantic off the NC coast and in St Thomas Us Virgin islands and have had no problem with this config. At St Thomas they said they didnt think the pony was necessary but didnt stop me from diving with it.

I was doing some research yesterday for dive orgs in New Jersey as I will be up that way and came across an interesting dive site....and....what made it interesting was they would not let you on the boat unless you had a pony bottle preferably,....but would settle for a spare air.

I find that boat cptk's seem to be making up a few laws of their own lately. Cant dive without a pony....cant dive WITH gloves...cant dive without a knife...cant dive WITH a knife....

it has gotten that before i commit money to a dive...i find out all the rules and restrictions.
anyone else???

 

[MechDiver]

Tank once bubbled...
My disclaimer:

I am a novice diver (OW, ADV, EANX), and I would like to start phasing into tek diving wrecks. This question might sound rediculous to some, but my conclusions are based more on logic than experience at this point. Please no flaming!

Does an alum 120 actually exist?

You are correct in that your choices show no experience. They also show no logic as you can't have logic without experience on which to base it.

Novice divers should be doing neither tek nor wreck penetration without experience and appropriate training. Enroll in some advanced dive level classes (AOW doesn't count) and equipment configuration will be included.

MD

 

[bubblemaker]

Mech...

You know... you're right! You should have expereience before you do things! Maybe you should take a class in Advanced Etiquette or "Being Nice 101"! TANK did not say he was actually going to do this... He was simply asking the opinion of other more experienced divers... He has the right to do that without being insulted by people like you! I personally don't think it's a bad idea... Here's why...

Sure.. the pony tank is an extra piece of gear that risks getting caught in a wreck, but without this config., you've got tons of hoses hanging just waiting to get snagged. Also, if you really want to maximize the use of your main tank, in this case the 120al, and not have to worry about relying on some "unreliable dive buddy" than a pony Is Absolutely the way to go...

Now as far as being allowed to bring them aboard a dive boat... I guess you'd have to check in first and make sure.

I think that as long as you have a good primary source of air and a backup in case of emergency with either you or your buddy.... then do what you think is best and ignore "know-it-all's" like Mech!

By the way.... There IS such thing as a 120al!!! (You do your homework Mech!)

 

[Tank]

well, that was interesting feedback on my first post.....

1. MASS-Diver, the post is legit, I am not striving a point, but asking a question.

2. Mech, I'm not sure why you replied the way you did. I prefixed my whole question with the fact that I was a novice, and also stated that I would like to "phase" into tek diving. Your reitereration of my statement showing no experience or logic was pretty insulting. I'll leave it at that.

Thank you other gents for answering with constructive criticism. I really do appreciate the benifit of your experience.

If I may ask, what is the real purpose of an octo on your primary air source, if you have an octo on a secondary air source? As I dive now (recreationally) , I use one AL100 w/1st stage, 2nd stage, octo, LP to BC. That is normal, and the octo serves as a buddy breather using proper buddy technique. However, if I blow an o-ring (like I did on my very first dive), this system is of no use, and you are putting a bet on either your buddy being close, or you being able to make it to the surface. In an overhead environment, you obviously have no way to make it to the surface, thereby cancelling out that option. IMO, that means redundancy would be the way to go. If not a pony bottle, than what, doubles? How much harder is it to get snagged with doubles on your back than a smaller pony? And as long as you have an octo, what is the difference which air source it is supplying, as long as it is supplying enough to make an emergency ascent?

Go easy this time......

 

[MASS-Diver]

The only proper way to share air is to donate from your mouth and then you (the one not in trouble) switch off to your backup.

A backmounted pony forms a channel where as doubles due to the manifold and hose routing don't, plus you can easily reach the valuves with doubles.

In the event of a catsphoric faliure you can either swim up (if you are 60' of shallower) or go to your buddy.

I do lots of shallow water penetration and I carry a 40cu slung and it's not in the way at all and I can take if off underwater or getting back into the boat. Most of the time someone thinks they need a pony they probably do not, but, in some cases (like I listed above) it may be a good soultion so: If you are going to carry a pony get a big one and sling it, it's the only way to go.


Putting a secondary on a pony with the intention of donating it is a problem because it adds confusion and a 20cu like you were asking about is too small. Like I said, the only right way to share air to doante the reg that's in your mouth, the pony stays secured with a band and is only deployed in a deliberate fashion.

You should take some more classes, lots of people learned these lessons the hard way by dying, now we can look at their mistakes and avoid them.

 

[Tank]

The only proper way to share air is to donate from your mouth and then you (the one not in trouble) switch off to your backup.

I couldn't agree more. This configuration could be deployed in that manner, no problem.

A backmounted pony forms a channel where as doubles due to the manifold and hose routing don't, plus you can easily reach the valuves with doubles.

That I didn't realize, and could present a problem. So you mean it creates a "wedge" that is more likely to catch something? You're right, the manifold would negate that situation. Point well taken.

In the event of a catsphoric faliure you can either swim up (if you are 60' of shallower) or go to your buddy.

I'm assuming you can't swim to the top because you're in an overhead environment. I know that making it to the top from 60' is fine if you are in open water, but would you bet your life on it?
Let's say you're diving the Spiegal Grove in the Keys where it's 134' to the sand, and you've been paired up with a buddy that you don't know. Are you going to bet your life on him/her being there for you?

I do lots of shallow water penetration and I carry a 40cu slung and it's not in the way at all and I can take if off underwater or getting back into the boat. Most of the time someone thinks they need a pony they probably do not, but, in some cases (like I listed above) it may be a good soultion so: If you are going to carry a pony get a big one and sling it, it's the only way to go.

That I can see. After thinking about it, a 20cf does sound too small. Just out of curiosity, have you ever had to switch to your pony in an emergency situation under duress? Do you mind giving me a brief account of what happened, was your buddy involved, etc.? TIA!

Putting a secondary on a pony with the intention of donating it is a problem because it adds confusion...

This could be my novice showing again, but:

Case A:
Your buddy needs air, you hand him your primary and stick your BC inflator (octo) in your mouth.... controlled ascent.

Case B: (this example was given in a previous post in this thread)
Your buddy needs air, you hand him your primary, you switch to your secondary (on the same source). You then unpack your pony, turn the valve on, and donate the pony retreiving your primary....controlled ascent. (confusing? probably)

Case C:
Your buddy needs air, you hand him your primary and switch to your secondary...controlled ascent. (Why have a pony again?)

Here's why....

Case D:
YOU need air, your buddy is too far away, you switch to your octo (connected to the pony, pony valve is always on)...controlled ascent.

You should take some more classes, lots of people learned these lessons the hard way by dying, now we can look at their mistakes and avoid them.

I plan on taking any and all classes I can get my hands on, but I am assuming that most of you have had these classes, yet you still differ greatly in opinion even after "learning those lessons". At least we can all agree on the not dying part.... all in favor?

 

[Tank]

Note that in "Case A" I am referring to the configuration I proposed in my first post where the BC inflator/octo combo is connected to the pony. Just wanted to clarify...

 

[MechDiver]

Tank once bubbled...
well, that was interesting feedback on my first post.....

2. Mech, I'm not sure why you replied the way you did. I prefixed my whole question with the fact that I was a novice, and also stated that I would like to "phase" into tek diving. Your reitereration of my statement showing no experience or logic was pretty insulting. I'll leave it at that.

You asked questions about equipment and dives that were, by your own admission, way above your current training level. You also stated you used "logic" in your "proposed" equipment choices. I mearly pointed out that you cannot apply logic to a situation you know very little about. There are ways to ask questions and get information and you, IMO, didn't do that. You stated preconceived notions that are incorrect and dangerous.

In my opinion it does little good to go through a very lengthy discussion on this type of topic unless the "asker" has the background to evaluate that information as it pertains to their situation. Again, by your own admission, you do not have that knowledge.

I was blunt in my answer to get your attention to the fact that, IMO, you needed to get some higher level training that explained some of the questions you were asking. THEN would be the proper time to ask. I also took offense to your statement that you wanted to "phase into tek diving". Again, you do not "phase" into tek diving.

If I offended you, I am sorry. But I did get you to notice the answer.

MD

 

[MechDiver]

bubblemaker once bubbled...
Mech...

You know... you're right! You should have expereience before you do things! Maybe you should take a class in Advanced Etiquette or "Being Nice 101"! TANK did not say he was actually going to do this... He was simply asking the opinion of other more experienced divers... He has the right to do that without being insulted by people like you! I personally don't think it's a bad idea... Here's why...

Sure.. the pony tank is an extra piece of gear that risks getting caught in a wreck, but without this config., you've got tons of hoses hanging just waiting to get snagged. Also, if you really want to maximize the use of your main tank, in this case the 120al, and not have to worry about relying on some "unreliable dive buddy" than a pony Is Absolutely the way to go...

My followup post to Tank also pretty well replies to your post. I do not believe I was in any way insulting to Tank. He stated he was a novice who had no experience with the subject at hand and I mearly agreed with him. I agree, he has the right to ask whatever he wants, and I also have the right to answer him however I want, within the Board guidelines and rules.

Your second paragraph above is also incorrect and shows a basic misunderstanding of technical equipment configuration and usage. If that "insults" you, sorry, but thats the way it is.

As far as your "know it alls like Mech" comment, would you consider that insulting? I am far far away from being a know it all, and I have no problem admitting that. I do, however, like to have an idea of what I don't know before I ask a question.

If there really is an alum 120, thats fine. I would have no reason to ever use such a thing, so I didn't bother looking it up. But thank you anyway.

As an additional comment, and purely IMO, you might want to thicken the ole skin a mite if you continue to post.

MD