Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes

[DiverBuoy]

ScubaDan that is so far from the truth. I've been very open about the causes, and I've even done comparisons to other organizations. Besides it's easy to go with the flow on this forum where everyone thinks their an expert on what's wrong with PADI. People like Detroit Diver are such experts on what is inadequate with PADI. You know why because he's observed bad divers, and shared in some discussions on Scubaboard. Oh yeah that's definitely proof - it's all about the money. He's pretty much saying any OW course should produce master divers. Therefore, there is no reasoning with the guy. If he was a PADI dive instructor he may be better able to appreciate the effort involved to get absolute beginners to recall just the life-saving information they need - to say nothing of the perf requirements they must meet. PADI doesn't leave anything out of OW that is life-saving. They also don't overwhelm new divers with more than they can handle. And going beyond that they have provided courses to take divers to master level.

It's convenient to become a on-line expert having read some posts or to share an opinion in poll or thread about what's inadequate having formed that opinion on the basis of others opinions. If you've observed beginners in a quarry kicking up silt - so what. You know what it proves - absolutely nothing except that beginners kick up silt.

I can list 100 skills PADI's left out of Open Water - they are the skills contained in the rest of PADI's courses. And they are all too much to include for beginners. Should all divers learn all those skills - I think so, and I'm not just saying it - I've set the example for anyone who knows me.

A beginning diver is a beginning diver. I seriously doubt that GUE OW class (which doesn't yet exist) will teach everything DIR knows to new divers never having dove scuba before and all in just just 4 OW dives! No way! If they are intent on doing it in 4 dives - then I gaurantee they will have additional classes you can take to gain the skills that were "omitted". Oh do you think they will charge for these other classes - wouldn't that make them money grubbers too?

THE POINT of this thread is to identify critical, essential, absolutely necessary, skills that the recreational scuba council has left out of the open water class curriculum requirements. I know what those requirements are - I teach them. And I personally haven't seen anything in this thread that changes my mind on that.

 

[detroit diver]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
ScubaDan that is so far from the truth. I've been very open about the causes, and I've even done comparisons to other organizations. Besides it's easy to go with the flow on this forum where everyone thinks their an expert on what's wrong with PADI. People like Detroit Diver are such experts on what is inadequate with PADI. You know why because he's observed bad divers, and shared in some discussions on Scubaboard. Oh yeah that's definitely proof - it's all about the money. He's pretty much saying any OW course should produce master divers. Therefore, there is no reasoning with the guy. If he was a PADI dive instructor he may be better able to appreciate the effort involved to get absolute beginners to recall just the life-saving information they need - to say nothing of the perf requirements they must meet. PADI doesn't leave anything out of OW that is life-saving. They also don't overwhelm new divers with more than they can handle. And going beyond that they have provided courses to take divers to master level.

It's convenient to become a on-line expert having read some posts or to share an opinion in poll or thread about what's inadequate having formed that opinion on the basis of others opinions. If you've observed beginners in a quarry kicking up silt - so what. You know what it proves - absolutely nothing except that beginners kick up silt.

I can list 100 skills PADI's left out of Open Water - they are the skills contained in the rest of PADI's courses. And they are all too much to include for beginners. Should all divers learn all those skills - I think so, and I'm not just saying it - I've set the example for anyone who knows me.

A beginning diver is a beginning diver. I seriously doubt that GUE OW class (which doesn't yet exist) will teach everything DIR knows to new divers never having dove scuba before and all in just just 4 OW dives! No way! If they are intent on doing it in 4 dives - then I gaurantee they will have additional classes you can take to gain the skills that were "omitted". Oh do you think they will charge for these other classes - wouldn't that make them money grubbers too?

THE POINT of this thread is to identify critical, essential, absolutely necessary, skills that the recreational scuba council has left out of the open water class curriculum requirements. I know what those requirements are - I teach them. And I personally haven't seen anything in this thread that changes my mind on that.

Whoa Mr. PADI boy. I never said I was an expert at anything. But as long as you're going to make this personal, get your head out of the PADI bucket and open your eyes to what's going on out there. Take off those "5 Star" glasses and look around.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not looking for perfection or master divers. I'm looking at basic skills that are not taught when they should be taught. I'm looking at classes being sold that should be included in basic scuba training. You don't give people enough credit and don't teach them what they need to know to be a COMPETENT diver. You cover your ass by teaching what a lawyer can slide by with life-saving skills, and little more.

I seriously doubt that GUE's class will be only 4 OW dives. And since you don't know either, then don't knock it. Let's see, do you think they will have a meaningless AOW class? How 'bout

AWARE-Fish Identification Underwater Naturalist
Boat Underwater Navigator
Peak Performance Buoyancy

Nah, don't think so.

If you don't see anything in this thread that changes your mind, or at least makes you think that this could be done in a far more comprehensive way, then you ARE brainwashed.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Detroit Diver I don't disagree that PADI makes huge amounts of money - huge (a million divers a year!). That has been at least a part of your argument.

I'm already a PADI expert. I want to become a DIR diver - and maybe someday a DIR expert. I'm not knocking DIR, you can't even read that into my words - so turning the tables - don't put words in my mouth.

I know what it takes to train a beginner on a new subject - because I've been an instructor for almost 20 years - the vast majority of which were prior to ever learning scuba. I've written curriculums for my company. I know how to challenge students to go way beyond where they are currently and to reach their full potential even unlock things they didn't know they had inside. I think PADI has a long track record of having a clue about what it takes too. They've also arranged courses which show a respect of the precious time of the modern professional - who can only give of their nights and weekends. Additionally, they have preparred courses to continue one's education.

Though most of your words here have been trolling and inflammatory in nature - this last one of yours is the first that makes any sense that sounds honest and truely from you. You've done a lot of bashing and mouthing but you haven't said anything besides generic statements about PADI being all about money and about BOW being inadequate - and citing examples which prove nothing.

As Mike Ferrara said let's get back to the point of this thread - Detroit Diver please list your specific examples of things which are missing from BOW which you feel must absolutely be included, so we can have something meaningful to discuss. You've covered the tanks-hanging-around-their-butts-and-trim issue - and you've claimed the 'low' standards can be blamed for divers destroying the reef and kicking up silt in a quarry - is that it? Anything else?

 

[wb416]

detroit diver once bubbled...


Whoa Mr. PADI boy. I never said I was an expert at anything. But as long as you're going to make this personal, get your head out of the PADI bucket and open your eyes to what's going on out there. Take off those "5 Star" glasses and look around.

DD... I think you would do better with more substance and less emotion, less subjective and more objective points. There's a bigger audience here than just you and DB... Don't be a non-substantive sock puppet.

How can you objectively argue using references to a course that isn't on the books yet? I'm sure it'll be a great course, but that's kinda like selling a vaporware word processing package and saying it is better than Microsoft Word by a mile.

It would be better if you didn't muddy GUE or taint it with your ineffective remarks or comments that are targeted to DB. Instead focus on points that can improve OW training in general. If we were having a debate competition, I would rather have you on the other team.

I think you need to review that Dale Carnegie course.... you know the one I mean... How to piss off friends and make new enemies.

Remember, when people think of the agency a person is associated with, they often correlate it with how a person expresses themselves. You might be the only spokesman that they'll ever hear. God forbid!

There are many people here like myself that rec'd non-optimal training. Give us all credit that if you make good points we can decide on our own if that is something we need to add to our pool of skills.

These comments aren't intended to be inflammatory, but than introspective.

Bob

 

[DiverBuoy]

You were duped too by Detroit Diver's words. I never said anything close to what you claim. I think DIR is cool. I plan to be a DIR diver and I never stop learning.

I hope people who are interested in PADI listen carefully to my words. Especially as I am a PADI expert and do my best to represent them with an honest and open approach. I didn't bring emotion into this Detroit Diver used the inflammatory words not I. But your being sucked into that argument and reading things that weren't written between the lines may be revealing a little too much color.

Back to the point at hand cwb do you have anything to offer on the subject we are discussing?

 

[sillygrendel]

cwb once bubbled...


There are many people here like myself that rec'd non-optimal training. Give us all credit that if you make good points we can decide on our own if that is something we need to add to our pool of skills.

Stepping aside from PADI per se here for a moment...

Question. Why is it seen as acceptable by many for new (OW) divers to stir up silt and/or crash into the bottom?

From what myself, DD, Mike and many others have seen this unfortunatly seems to be an objective fact.

(Its fact that it happens. My hypothesis is that it happens because whoever was training the diver deemed it an acceptable behavior to leave OW training with.)

If you feel it is acceptable, why?

If you feel its not, what needs to be done to correct the deficiency? (More oversight and beheading for bad instructors? More attention to trim? Bouyancy? Different kicking techniques? All of the above?)

I'm just looking for an explanation for what I see. Feeling that such behavior is acceptable is certainly one explanation... If it is _not_ acceptable then _something_ is wrong with dive training - what needs to be done about it?

 

[DiverBuoy]

And they are taught not to do it. Next ...

 

[sillygrendel]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
And they are taught not to do it. Next ...

Do you have an explanation for why it occurs then? Or do you deny that is does occur?

 

[DiverBuoy]

You see the very folks that are upset that divers do this ... are the same ones who want to add more to the OW course. These beginners can't even get this fundamental instruction down - how can they master even more?

Students need time to perfect the techniques they are introduced to in OW. Keep this in mind the next time you observe a student on their first dive silting up the bottom or using their hands to bounce off of a reef. Remember they have so much already on their mind - "keep breathing, don't hold breath, keep breathing don't hold/ hey this is the first time I've ever been this deep/ amazing my ears don't hurt like they used to when I dove for toys in the deep end of my uncle's pool/ I hope I didn't lock my keys in the car/ whoa this gear is awkward/ was that a fish I just saw I hope it isn't poisonous/ I hope I don't look like and idiot when I grab my snorkel instead of my low pressure inflator"

They can't remember that you should add 10 feet to a dive in colder water when using the RDP, or that a tank should have a hydro every 5 years, or that their wetsuit is compressing and losing it's buoyancy, or that breathing in deep they will rise and letting their air out they will fall, or that ...

 

[wb416]

sillygrendel once bubbled...


Do you have an explanation for why it occurs then? Or do you deny that is does occur?

Lack of emphasis or perhaps time. PADI is the often the target of choice, but let's take a local YMCA class. I have a good friend that took a 13+ week OW class. Even considering the amount of extra time this class had vs local PADI classes, his trim stunk and ability to stir the bottom up silt was incredible. As a result of dedicated practice for a DIRF class, his trim is pretty good.

I too have seen more than 80-90% of the students, instructors, and divers at Gilboa exhibiting horrible trim and anti-silting techniques. If this is covered (even briefly) in the OW classes, then perhaps it's a matter of lack of emphasis.

I would say that in order to improve the situation in the general population of divers that:

• Divers should be shown good and bad examples of trim
• Divers should be shown the effects of weight placement on trim
• Divers should be taught to overcome our natural vertical (upright) inclination.
• Get Divers into a good trim position and get them to internalize the feeling
• Have divers observe and comment on other student's/diver's trim
• Video tape class to align mental image of self-trim with actual trim

If everyone is covering it, yet so many forget/neglect to demonstrate good trim, then my hypothesis is that it isn't emphasized enough. Perhaps the bullet points above might help.

wb