Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes

[WreckWriter]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Especially as I am a PADI expert and do my best to represent them with an honest and open approach.

A PADI expert are you? Refresh our memories on long you've been diving? Not long, huh?

You should really think about it before you try to put your textbook knowledge up against the experience of folks like Mike Ferrara and Detroit_Diver. As you and everyone else can see, you'll lose every time.

Dive 10, 20, or 30 years, then come back and call yourself an expert.

When I did my PADI IE I got an award for being the only person the whole year (1987) to get 100% on the Standards and Procedures portion of the exam (open book btw). I guess that makes me a PADI expert too, huh?

WW

 

[sillygrendel]

You see the very folks that are upset that divers do this ... are the same ones who want to add more to the OW course. These beginners can't even get this fundamental instruction down - how can they master even more?

I thought you just said that it was taught and that the behavior was unacceptable?

Students need time to perfect the techniques they are introduced to in OW. Keep this in mind the next time you observe a student on their first dive silting up the bottom or using their hands to bounce off of a reef.

Is it an acceptable practice then to produce students who will bounce off the reef??


Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that you're saying that OW students are not prepared to be in silty conditions or over a reef. Either that or you're denying that it happens. Or it could be you think silting & reef bouncing are acceptable.

Could you clarify?

 

[wb416]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
You see the very folks that are upset that divers do this ... are the same ones who want to add more to the OW course. These beginners can't even get this fundamental instruction down - how can they master even more?

But even experienced divers aren't getting it. It seems to me that at no time is the emphasis placed on the trim. Even if they don't have time to master it, then need to be ever mindful of it. But if I talk with the average diver about it, I get a look like I have a third eye or just a blank unknowing shrug.

As someone that has some experience designing curriculum, you know that you might cover many different things, but there are key points that you want someone to walk away with, so you find ways of emphasizing them.

I'm suggesting that this topic of trim needs more emphasis across all agencies. Speak it, Demonstrate it, Do it, review it, Do it, expect it....

If there isn't enough time to properly do this, then more time should be added to the entire session, or remedial training should be targeted.

I'm familiar with the learning needs of adult students and the complications that arise in the lifes of said learners. It doesn't however, eliminate the responsibility of instructor or student from demonstrating competent behavior at completion of the session.

regards, wb

 

[sillygrendel]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
You see the very folks that are upset that divers do this ... are the same ones who want to add more to the OW course. These beginners can't even get this fundamental instruction down - how can they master even more?

Hee... I think I can answer my own question.

Ok. So from your view its unacceptable AND its taught. but apparantly it happens way too frequently.

I guess I would normally consider that I've been taught something if I can perform that activity satisfatorily. (which many apparantly can't do.)

Do you have a different definition of teaching or what it means to perform the skill satisfacorily???

Something just doesn't click for me here and I'm trying to figure out what it is.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Sillygrendel what students do VS what they are taught - isn't that really at the fundamental center of this discussion. We all want students who complete open water and dive with complete environmental awareness, recalling everything they've ever been taught. But folks, reality check, it doesn't happen.

Question is if they can't even peform consistently and perfectly what they've already been taught why is it that we want to add more? We can't cram the entire PADI modular program (every course) into a single open water course. It can't be done.

I agree that in ideal conditions we'd shadow divers through the first dozen dives, training them all the while, adding more building blocks to their task load for each subsequent dive - until they acheive mastery of just the things they were taught during Open Water. It would be great but it's a fantasy and no one would have the time.

WreckWriter once again making your usual valuable contributions I see. I'm so glad you've posted for everyone to read a little of all that experience you have, instead of meaningless drivel that benefits no one.

 

[sillygrendel]

[edit]

I misread you. I thought you said it was _not_ fundamentally important. My appologies.

[/edit]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Sillygrendel what students do VS what they are taught - isn't that really at the fundamental center of this discussion.

I would have to respectfully disagree.

It is fundamentally important in this discussion.

If we didn't care how students performed after they leave the hands of the educators, what is the point in instructing them at all???

I must be sorely missing the point of education, since I always thought it was to make you proficient in the activity you're being instructed in.

Why not just give them a book, throw them a tank and send them on their way?

 

[sillygrendel]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...

I agree that in ideal conditions we'd shadow divers through the first dozen dives, training them all the while, adding more building blocks to their task load for each subsequent dive - until they acheive mastery of just the things they were taught during Open Water. It would be great but it's a fantasy and no one would have the time.

Sigh... OK. So you're basically saying that it is impossible for new divers to acquire these skills. But that it is unacceptable for them NOT to have them.

Don't you feel this is a bit of a paradox?? What would you suggest as a solution?

 

[WreckWriter]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
WreckWriter once again making your usual valuable contributions I see. I'm so glad you've posted for everyone to read a little of all that experience you have, instead of meaningless drivel that benefits no one.

Don't you consider unmasking you as an inexperienced idiot to be a valuable contribution? I know lots of folks do, ask around.

You aren't even an average PADI instructor, much less an expert. You're what most of us call a "90 day wonder". Once again, how long have you been diving?

My experience and qualifications have been posted many times. I couldn't care less if you agree with my politics or my opinion on pretty much anything other than diving. As far as diving goes, you're strictly an amateur (that's a French word, it means punk). As a somewhat famous former actor might say "I pity the fool that draws you as an instructor".

WW

 

[DiverBuoy]

4 dives is not enough for mastery. That is for another course - and more experience. I'm getting confused on what instructors want to get out of this discussion. I thought it was to determine if we are not teaching something that beginning students must have.

Sillygrendel, for your benefit I have stated before, my students do not bang into the reef. Mike Ferrara also says his students do not silt the bottom. Students can achieve these goals, that is the point of there instruction. Mike Ferrara claims he spends additional time with his students on trim and other things to achieve this and other goals. I claim that I teach only what PADI includes and also achieve the same results.

The question then of this thread is: Would all the students be better - IE would no students ever touch the reef or silt the bottom - if they were taught an enriched course that included the equivalent of perhaps OW/AOW/Rescue bundled into one course? Or how about OW and DIR-F bundled. To that question I answer yes - absolutely they would! They do the same thing when they dive 15 - 30 times. So what is the magic pill? I think it is experience. I don't think the course lacks what it takes to make competent divers. I think it's like instructing students on any subject - you've given them the fundamentals they must put them to use - which takes time.

Time, time, time - not more knowledge. They need time to use what they've already got.

WW again more drivel ... unrelated to the subject ... how valuable

 

[wb416]

sillygrendel once bubbled...



I must be sorely missing the point of education, since I always thought it was to make you proficient in the activity you're being instructed in.

Why not just give them a book, throw them a tank and send them on their way?

Not to quibble.... but there is a difference between education and training...

Roughly speaking, education is more about acquiring knowledge. Example: Reading an OW scuba manual would education someone in the relationship between depth, air pressure, and air volume. Doesn't mean they can apply the knowledge, but they should understand it.

Training is about leading participants to targeted measurable performance objectives. Example:

• Student will demonstrate good horizontal trim
• Student will demonstrate the effects of improper weight positioning on trim
• Student will determine and demonstrate proper weight requirements using an unfamiliar exposure protection