Piston vs Diaphragm OR MK25 vs MK17

[50Fathom]

50Fathom,..... what's up with only having one MIFLEX hose ? just wonderin'

Just haven't gotten around to switching my short-hose over. I'm keeping rubber for the longhose and HP hoses, but I'll go miflex for the short hoses, since they get all bendy.

 

[halocline]

It sounds like the free parts program is for all practical purposes dead at the end of the year, so I would not factor that into the equation.

In fact, with Scubapro moving away from the free parts program, I see the largest casualty being annual regulator service as the customers will now have no real incentive to bring the reg in every year for service as opposed to every two years, at least with new regs or with regs where they have missed a year already and lost the free parts program eligibility. The big losers will be shops and the revenue they earn off service work. It will save scubapro money, but it will again screw the local dive shops/dealers.

I also read the news about the free parts program demise. From what I gather, new buyers (as of 2012) will only get the free parts program if they buy a SP reg along with a scubapro BC or computer, and current owners will have to strictly maintain 12 month service intervals or lose free parts permanently. IOW, no re-instatement by paying for parts one year if you miss a year.

Sometimes I'm really surprised at the stupidity of some of these large companies, and I suspect this decision might go down as the 'netflix fiasco' of the scuba industry. First, in a highly competitive, leisure industry with a shrinking market, high sales margins, and an antiquated retail structure, you can't possibly predict a benefit from significantly lowering customer service AND screwing your dealers at the same time. Second, the 'free parts' program is practically cost free to SP, and one of the primary selling points for new, brick-and-mortar dealer sales. The mark up on rebuild kits, compared to the cost of production, is stunning, meaning that SP can give away an item with a perceived value of about $25 at a cost that surely must be lower than $1. Now, by charging that absurd price to loyal customers, they get an additional $10-15 (from the dealer) per reg per year, but lose whatever perceived edge they might have had over lower cost options such as internet sales of competitors' brands. They have abandoned a policy that had a much better perceived value than actual value in the first place, just to try to fleece customers a little bit more.

The only good news IMO is that this might signal the crumbling of the dumb policy that so much of the dive gear industry is clinging to; restricted sales on parts and reliance on dealer service.

 

[Slater]

Ive been doing research as of lately as im new to the sickness...
Been hearing way to many mixed opinions on the piston vs. diaphragm "which is best for cold water' discussion from various profesionals in the industry.
At what temp is it best to commit to a diaphram over a sealed piston, trying to make sense of my situation in diving San Diego waters in the colder winter months were by no means will we every have snow or ice.. haha

LDS:
"Diaphragm regs are fine, but do not hold a candle to a balanced piston, like a mk 25 (best). Biggest advantage of a diaphragm is if diving under the ice, less likely to freeze."

 

[rhwestfall]

In the middle of summer here, water is as high 72-74. Despite that, the thermo rocks you with a balmy 38. I've seen my share of "top end" pistons have issues..... and it is usually the "hottest, newest, best" that do it. Usually the shop DMs with there sales pitch gear.

At times, I almost think a "low performance" reg may be better, and have dove MK-10's in this stuff for years without incident (w/ full metal seconds). Despite my success, I have switched to MK-17's for "comfort". Probably more because of my wife and (soon) my daughter diving than myself.....

 

[rhwestfall]

Diaphragm regs are fine, but do not hold a candle to a balanced piston, like a mk 25 (best).

better go easy on the Kool-Aid my friend......

 

[Slater]

better go easy on the Kool-Aid my friend......

That was quote from a LDS owner...

 

[Aqua-Andy]

That was quote from a LDS owner...

Ask him why this is true. Is it because the MK25 can flow over 300 CFM opposed to the MK17 at something like 175CFM? this may sound impressive until you look at the specks for valves, Thermo and XS scuba both state 50CFM, now why do you need a reg that can flow 300CFM? You cant use more air than the valve can supply.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Second, the 'free parts' program is practically cost free to SP, and one of the primary selling points for new, brick-and-mortar dealer sales. The mark up on rebuild kits, compared to the cost of production, is stunning, meaning that SP can give away an item with a perceived value of about $25 at a cost that surely must be lower than $1. Now, by charging that absurd price to loyal customers, they get an additional $10-15 (from the dealer) per reg per year, but lose whatever perceived edge they might have had over lower cost options such as internet sales of competitors' brands. They have abandoned a policy that had a much better perceived value than actual value in the first place, just to try to fleece customers a little bit more.

I think you've identified the issue.

It's easy for Scubapro to collect data on the number of free parts provided and then calculate either the actual production cost of the kits where for something like an R390 kit, the packaging, seat, o-rings and nut would cost well under $1, or alternatively calculate the wholesale revenue "lost" due to the free parts program. I suspect they use the latter figure and then decide it costs "X" million of dollars over a period of years in "lost" revenue.

What is harder to caclulate is the sales that are actually made due to the free parts program, and that will now be lost. If you do one calculation but not the other, then scaling back the program looks like a great idea - when it probably isn't.

Apparently they have decided that doing it this way will promote more package sales - ignoring the issue that you need customers with enough disposable income to spend $300-$700 on a reg, $350-$700 on a BC and $350-$1000 on a computer. That pretty mnuch limits the program to only those people who show up with a minimum of $1K for entry level equipment, after spending what ever it cost for mask, fins, snorkel and training. It's a limited market.

Service has been one of the few revenue generators left to an LDS and there is no zero incentive for an annual service for the diver that lightly uses the reg and who will now come in every 2-3 years rather than annually.

 

[rhwestfall]

That was quote from a LDS owner...

re-read DA & 50's posts....

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Ask him why this is true. Is it because the MK25 can flow over 300 CFM opposed to the MK17 at something like 175CFM? this may sound impressive until you look at the specks for valves, Thermo and XS scuba both state 50CFM, now why do you need a reg that can flow 300CFM? You cant use more air than the valve can supply.

The numbers are something like 225 for the Mk 17 and 300 for the Mk 25, but are incredibly misleading as that is done with a specialized high flow rate valve and a constant 3000 psi supply pressure.

In the real world, a high performance second stage only flows 65-70 scfm, so there is just no use for more than 150 scfm or so even with two divers inhaling simultaneously at depth while the diver with the gas on his back inflates drysuit and wing.

175 scfm is overkill, 225 scfm is overkill and 300 scfm is ridiculous overkill. 300 scfm is "better" only in the same sense that you can do 160 mph in a Shelby Mustang in a school zone. Serves no real purpose, has some serious donwsides and is pretty stupid.