Piston vs diaphragm first stage?

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Very simple really! any ideas floating about on the subject? Pros and cons? Serviceability? Aqualung/Apeks vs Scubapro?

Guy

The answer to which is best is "yes".:D Both are fine. Pistons are a bit easier to service, maybe, just maybe perform a wee bit better. Diaphragms are said to be better for cold water and are a a little bit more complicated to service. That said, I dive my piston scubapro down to temps of 45 degrees w/o issues - same with my old school Sherwoods.
 
The missus and me both have Mk25's. They perform very well is ice, never had a free flow. Most of thetech divers here use them as they are very reliable and route nicely aswell. Apeks are verypopular in the UK as they are very reliable and easy to service but mainly cheap.
 
Hello divers!

I want to explain you my opinion about the topic “piston or diaphragm first stage”.

People who want to dive the whole year don’t own regulator equipment for the different seasons, I think. Here in Germany, and northern Europe in general, at least the half of our dives are cold water dives with water temperatures below 10°C (50°F).
So witch regulator to choose? If the worst condition is the cold or dirty water, then you should choose a cold water reg, of course. Cold water regs work in warm water, too.

Looking at the construction principle I find piston first stages have one big disadvantage: the water has to enter the regulators spring chamber. So it comes closer to the “cold spots” in the first stage. This could make “outer freezing” easier, where water freezes around the piston and main spring (I don’t know the exact English term for it). And when you dive in salty or dirty water, the matter of cleaning a piston first stage after the is also relevant, I think. Some recommended cold water approved diaphragm first stages today use a “dry chamber” construction to keep water away from the main spring and so also away from the “cold spot” (Apeks, Aqualung, Cressi , Scubapro MK17, Oceanic FDX10, HOG=Apeks, Zeagle). This is very simple and reliable and the main components of the first stage remain clean. Others have a totally different function principle (Poseidon XStream).
The solution with filling the spring chambers with a special liquid to prevent freezing can also be found, but I don’t like this because it is extra effort what makes the reg more expensive and more difficult to service.
Because of the mentioned construction “disadvantage”, a German diving association, the VDST, does not recommend piston first stages.
Google the PDF “falle_tauchausruestung” on htsv.de and there especially look at the slides 9, 14 and 17. (some translations: Kolben = piston / Membran = diaphragm / Kälte = cold).
Of cause, any type of “good” regulator, which is approved to the European EN250 (standard for cold water diving equipment), independent from its type of construction, should work well in warm and cold water. In most cases even regulators without being approved for cold water work fine, if you have DRY AIR in your tank and have serviced the regulator properly. And many divers didn’t have any problems with “warm water regs” in cold water. But will it still work in critical situations? :idk:

The matter of servicing effort/price should be no argument when we talk about safety. In Germany you will not pay much more for a service of diaph. regs in general. It depends more on the brand and their costs for spare parts. Cheaper/easier service may be a matter for diving schools with much equipment and very many dives a year, I think, but not for your own safety.
When you want to buy a regulator in Germany, nearly any dealer will offer you a diaphragm regulator here.

So I would always recommend diaphragm first stages, because I give more trust in them.

Btw.:
A regulator does not only consist of the piston or diaphragm. The construction in general is what really matters (because of that I trust Poseidon XStream most). And without good service every regulator can fail, even in warm water.

I would also recommend Apeks XTX 50/100/200, but I chose the Poseidon, because Poseidon requires service every two years only combined with a lifetime warranty and this gives me more trust in the technology when a manufacturer says so.
 
Is there something unique to the Mk17 that prevents it form being oxygen clean or is it something universal to diaphragm regs?

The BP Scubapro is a great regulator from the MK5, MK10, MK20 and MK25 it has been there corvette of regulators. I breathes great and it can be O2 cleaned for O2 service. The MK17 is a diaphragm and is a sealed design great for cold or dirty water (Also keeps salt out) but it cannot be used for O2 service. It really depends on what you want to do with it.
Hose routing is easier on the MK25 and the swivel LP turret. Service is worldwide as stated above.

MK17 is easier for me to service with less parts.

SP made a MK19 in EU that was the MK17 with a swivel LP turret but not available stateside.

The HOG D1 is a diaphragm, swivel LP turret and 5th port with up to 100% O2 service. Parts are available to service yourself and they are a lot cheaper than SP.

Again this depends on what you will use it for.

I have the MK2, Mk10, MK16, MK17, MK 25 and HOG D1.
 
Is there something unique to the Mk17 that prevents it form being oxygen clean or is it something universal to diaphragm regs?
Also diaphragm regs can be made oxygen clean. Depends on the manufacturer. Scubapro only seems to offer piston 1st stages for oxygen. E. g. Apeks and Poseidon only offer diaphragm 1st stages and some of them are suitable for O2 out of the box.
 
Nah; das war ja sehr gründig! Danke, mein Freund, da hab ich auch heute wieder was neues gelernt und das ist immer super!
 
So I would always recommend diaphragm first stages, because I give more trust in them.

This is completely misplaced trust. Little bits of water etc do get inside even sealed regs and diaphrams are much more likely to have IP creep and fail because if it. Piston regs are much more tolerant.

I have about 15 regs that area a mix of sealed diaphrams, unsealed diaphrams, and pistons, and have used them all down to 38F/3.3C. The "benefits" of sealed regs are way overhyped.
 
The fact that part of a piston reg is exposed to the environment also means that it's very easy to clean. I run fresh water through the ambient holes after every dive, and soak the regs after every dive trip. I have regs that are 10-20 years old that still look like new inside.
 
The fact that part of a piston reg is exposed to the environment also means that it's very easy to clean. I run fresh water through the ambient holes after every dive, and soak the regs after every dive trip.
Yes, true. You HAVE to clean them very toroughly to keep them so clean. The same with diaphragm 1st stages without environmental sealing.
This is completely misplaced trust. Little bits of water etc do get inside even sealed regs and diaphrams are much more likely to have IP creep and fail because if it. Piston regs are much more tolerant.
Don't you think this is a misplaced trust, too?
Water inside the 1st stage is dangerous to every 1st stage, unique to piston and diaphragm.
I have about 15 regs that area a mix of sealed diaphrams, unsealed diaphrams, and pistons, and have used them all down to 38F/3.3C. The "benefits" of sealed regs are way overhyped.
Maybe it is a hype. As you may have good experiences with piston regs, I don't give much in the "hype" about the reliability of piston 1sts.
Why do two of the known "specialists" for cold water approved eqipment in Europe (Apeks and Poseidon) only produce diaphragm regulators?

But especially for cold water dives you should always have two separate regulators on separate valves with you.
No reg is fully protected against failures. Every diver should keep this in mind. As I mentioned, a reg does not only constist of the first stage. The whole construction has to be considered. You also find reports of diaphragm regs that failed. But when it comes to the question, if piston of diaphramg to choose, at least in Germany, nearly every dealer would recommend you the diaphragm ones.

By the way: Happy Easter!
 
Why do two of the known "specialists" for cold water approved eqipment in Europe (Apeks and Poseidon) only produce diaphragm regulators?

And Scubapro and Atomic make alot of pistons, what is your point?

And in over 1000 dives, I know far more diaphram regs which have failed due to IP creep (a few dozen) than piston regs which have frozen (none).

With 5 posts here and no information about your real world experience, you don't really have much of a track record to go spouting off about "best" and "most" reliable EarlyD.
 

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