Piston Diaphragm ??? What

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alex6

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What is the Diffrence between a Reg with a Piston and a Diaphragm. Which one is better? Which is more reliable? Which one is easy to mantain.

I am looking at geting the Scuba Pro Mk2 Plus/R190 Regulator.

I will be diving in warm waters off the Ga coast And Fl coast.
 
I dive with piston regs and feel that they offer advantages in terms of both flow rate and performance and the freeze problems some divers report has been a non issue with me.

I dive in water in the low thirties in winter and in the mid to upper forties at depth in summer and have not had a problem with the Scubapro MK 3, MK 10, MK 15 or more recently the MK 20 or Mk 25 first stages.

The TIS kit (Thermal Insulating System) used by Scubapro is not, in my opinion, as effective as the SPEC (Silicone Protected Environmental Chamber) kits used on their older MK, 3, MK5, MK 9, MK 10, or MK 15, but it seems to work for me.

The piston reg is also bullet proof with essentially one moving part (the piston) and very few critical o-rings subject to wear (two, 1 high pressure and 1 low pressure, on most designs) from the moving piston. They are easy to maintain, require minimal service and are easy work on for annual service.

In terms of mechanical relaibility, they have a distinct advantage over more complex diaphragm first stages and will maintain peak performance bewteen regularly scheduled servicing with no potential for degradation caused by stiffening rubber diaphragms, etc.

Some divers do have problems with the newer MK 20 and 25 in cold water, but other don't and I think it relates to breathing rates or patterns. With the older MK 3 or MK 10, I can fill a 200 lb lift bag at 140' in 40 degree water and not freeze one up.

But if you are diving warm water, I would choose a good piston reg hands down over a diaphragm reg just for the increased reliability and performance.

The MK2 is basically a redesigned MK 3 that is DIN compatible and has an extra LP port. It is not really a great performer at depth but is simple and reliable.

The R190 is not balanced and if not adjusted properly can freeflow (a not uncommon complaint) particularly with an unbalanced first stage like the MK 2. If you get one, it needs to be adjusted for minimum breathing effort on a full tank. The intermediate pressure varies a bit from full to empty tank on an unbalanced reg as the high pressure air from the tank acts directly on the seat mounted on the bottom of the piston.

What often happens is the reg gets adjusted on a shop air tank at far less than 3300 psi. the result is that when attached to a full tank, the intermediate pressure is slightly higher than when the second stage was adjusted and the reg then has a slight freeflow. (Some techs are really poor at their job and the reg unfortunately gets blamed) With proper adjustment freeflow is not an issue but, being unbalanced, it will breath slightly harder at low tank pressures.

The R380 is a balanced second stage and offers consistent performance with varying intermediate pressure, but I would go with a G250. It's balanced, adjustable, bullet proof, and well matched to the Mk 25 first stage. Although it is not marketed this way by Scubapro, it also works well with the Mk 2 first stage and if set up properly the G250's adjustment allows you to maintain minimum breathing effort as tank pressure falls.

With a Mk2 and either a G250 or an R380, you would have great performance at moderate depths for relatively small bucks. With a MK25 G250, you would have a reg that would go anywhere and give great performance.

Scubapro has also been very reliable in terms of staying in business, providing accessible service (even if you do have to tell the tech how you want your reg set up now and then), and providing long term parts support. I can still get parts for my first reg, a 20 year old Mk 3 high performance, not many companies offer that kind of long term parts support.
 
Do a search on piston vs. diaphragm. It will be educational..

IMO, piston regs should only be used for warmer waters (above 50).

I think the TIS from Scubapro is a load of horsepucky...

It doesnt work, it never will work, and pistons ahould stay in warm water and thats that!!!!!

Let the flame wars BEGIN!!!!!!!!!

get yourself a nice APEKS reg with an environmental seal, and you will be all set...
 
DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

The piston reg is also bullet proof with essentially one moving part (the piston) and very few critical o-rings subject to wear (two, 1 high pressure and 1 low pressure, on most designs) from the moving piston. They are easy to maintain, require minimal service and are easy work on for annual service.


I will agree with a lot of things you have said Aquamaster but I have to disagree with a few also. ScubaPro does make an excellent reg but there are also just a few excellent diaphram regs around, notice that ScubaPros latest push is their new diaphram reg.

IMHO, MOST people shouldn't be servicing their own gear so the complexity of the internal workings should be of no consequence.


In terms of mechanical relaibility, they have a distinct advantage over more complex diaphragm first stages and will maintain peak performance bewteen regularly scheduled servicing with no potential for degradation caused by stiffening rubber diaphragms, etc.


Do you have any statistics to verify this? I use a diaphram reg, it is enviromentally sealed and I put a more than my fair share of bottom time in with classes and fun diving. That is a lot of chlorine and then the salt water thrown in on top. With proper basic care, either type should work just fine. I know my reg works just as good at the end of the year as it did when I started the year with it.


The R380 is a balanced second stage and offers consistent performance with varying intermediate pressure, but I would go with a G250. It's balanced, adjustable, bullet proof, and well matched to the Mk 25 first stage


Actually the 380 is UNbalanced but an excellent second stage when matched with the MK25 or MK16, both balanced first stages. If I'm going to do deeper dives, more than 75 ft, then the 250 is excellent but I'm recommend going all the way to the the 550.

ScubaPro is is the Cadallic of regulators.....

but why not use the Rolls Royce, Get an APEX 50 or 200.
 
Okay... I know, I'm biased. As the Technical Support guy for a manufacturer, I am supposed to lean towards the stuff we make.

But, as far as the consumer is concerned there is absolutely no difference between a piston and a diaphragm first stage. They each do the exact same thing for you. And with the exception of a very few 1st stages on the market, they BOTH allow water inside them in order to balance for the increased pressure on the unit at depth. IF they did not allow for water to enter them, adding the ambiant pressure to the front side of the piston, your reg would breath worse and worse and worse until you'd be literally sucking air as hard as you could in order to breath.

Also, the #1 rated regulator for Cold Water conditions, and also the most popular one in terms of over all sales is a Piston Designed 1st stage. You can go to a very informative website and view some stats from an Antarctic Expedition that tested regulators in some of the most extreme cold water conditions on the planet. These same results have been used by everybody from commercial outfits to the US Navy to NOAA in deciding what units they will use.

But, for your question, the answer is quite simple. Neither is any better than the other. Find several regs at your local dealers that fit the price range your are comfortable with. After that, ask about a bit, (and get all these lovely opinions) read up a bit and purchase the item you feel is best for you based on what is important to you. All in all, with the exception of a few, we all make good gear that you will probably be happy with. It's the minor features and benefits that alter from one manufacturer to the next.
 
Okay... I know, I'm biased. As the Technical Support guy for a manufacturer, I am supposed to lean towards the stuff we make.

But, as far as the consumer is concerned there is absolutely no difference between a piston and a diaphragm first stage. They each do the exact same thing for you. And with the exception of a very few 1st stages on the market, they BOTH allow water inside them in order to balance for the increased pressure on the unit at depth. IF they did not allow for water to enter them, adding the ambiant pressure to the front side of the piston, your reg would breath worse and worse and worse until you'd be literally sucking air as hard as you could in order to breath.

Also, the #1 rated regulator for Cold Water conditions, and also the most popular one in terms of over all sales is a Piston Designed 1st stage. You can go to a very informative website and view some stats from an Antarctic Expedition that tested regulators in some of the most extreme cold water conditions on the planet. These same results have been used by everybody from commercial outfits to the US Navy to NOAA in deciding what units they will use.

But, for your question, the answer is quite simple. Neither is any better than the other. Find several regs at your local dealers that fit the price range your are comfortable with. After that, ask about a bit, (and get all these lovely opinions) read up a bit and purchase the item you feel is best for you based on what is important to you. All in all, with the exception of a few, we all make good gear that you will probably be happy with. It's the minor features and benefits that alter from one manufacturer to the next.
 
Lead_carrier once bubbled...

Do you have any statistics to verify this? I use a diaphram reg, it is enviromentally sealed and I put a more than my fair share of bottom time in with classes and fun diving. That is a lot of chlorine and then the salt water thrown in on top. With proper basic care, either type should work just fine. I know my reg works just as good at the end of the year as it did when I started the year with it.

I don't have any stats but my opinion is based on my experience with Dacor and US Divers diaphragm first stages as well as the opinion of a US Divers dealer and technician who felt that the performance difference before and after service was quite noteable in the diaphragm regs he serviced.

It also makes sense from a mechanical standpoint as with a piston first stage when it is not pressurized it is truly at rest with the mainspring extended and uncompressed and the piston edge off the valve seat. So with proper rinsing and storage and only occassional use, a piston first stage can go several years without service and still maintain peak performance.

My primary regs get serviced annually both for reliability and because I do around 100 dives a year and they are used a lot. (And to be honest, Scubapro played musical pistons and seats with the Mk 20 for a few years and one of the combinations they tried was not even able to last a full season.)

But I use Mk 10 Balanced Adjustables on stage bottles and hang tanks that see relatively few dives per year. I have found the second stages normally require annual service and seat replacement but that the first stages will go 3-4 years with nothing more than preventive maintainence to ensure the ambient presure chamber is topped off with silicone grease and an IP check every now then to ensure the HP seat is still in good condition. And the traditional seat design used in the Mk 10 is very reliable, long lived, and quickly changed in the field if you d o detect some IP pressure creep. (The older flat seats could be flipped over and the other side used, as can be done with TUSA seats which are the same part as the older Scubapro seats.)

I have never been able to get that sort of extended interval between service with the Dacor or US divers diaphragm regs I have owned as all of them became noticeably harder to breathe, particularly once the normal annual service interval was exceeded significantly. On a primary reg that you service every year whether it needs it or not, it is probably less noticeable and less of an issue.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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