Petrel upgrades?

[Dr. Lecter]

I did have two other suggestions in the original post... but I guess they were overlooked by the whole wireless air thing.

Not sure if they were overlooked so much as considered and ignored as not worth the typing time. Since you sound rather butt-hurt, I suppose I'll indulge you.

The compass thing is basic hardware reality: unless SW put it in there from the get-go and just never told anyone, Petrels don't currently have the hardware necessary to run an electronic compass. I'm not hugely opposed to the concept of adding the NERD's compass to the Petrel, though like AI I prefer to keep the box simple - more hardware components and more code equals more potential issues. But if it's workable in the NERD it should be workable in the Petrel. OTOH, the Petrel isn't as easily viewable as the NERD and I'd hate to see the Petrel cost more than necessary.

The surface O2 thing is something you'd think might appeal to tech and non-tech divers alike. But while SW can clarify, I'm not sure there's any accepted model for SI O2 (much less other EAN mixes) affecting tissue saturation. There was an article about SI O2 vs. accelerated no-fly times in the recent Tech Diver eMag that's published here, which has info relevant to this topic.

 

[tbone1004]

no association with Shearwater but if you talk to them you'll see that they aren't you're normal dive company driven by the fads of the day and what the rest of the recreational world does. What drives them to make their products is to provide the best equipment for the technical divers that isn't available to them from anyone else, not to follow the rest of the flock. Any recreational R&D takes away from their ability to make products for the breather market and since they make custom software programs for quite a few breathers that are hard connected, they have more important things to do. AI would require in excess of $100k in hardware development for the transmitter, and probably $25k-$30k in programming costs. It would also require them to start selling into more of the LDSs to capture the recreational market which brings distribution into the mix and marketing to try to sell that product in a ScubaPro or Aqualung shop. The shops would then still probably push the SP or AL computers because they get higher margins on those computers. If you're an AI diver I'm sure the thought of having the best computer on the market work for you with AI has you lusting after it, but economics win out on this one as well as having a sound business model with a very targeted audience. You can actually see that with the rec-nitrox mode. It's not "recreational" like you would normally see in a dive computer, it just provides a nicer GUI if you're doing ocean diving or even easy cave dives where you are on one or two different gasses for "recreational diving".
I.e. this weekend my petrel is in OC-Rec mode, I'm doing nice easy cave dives, limited deco, one stage. It's "technical cave diving" but it's nice easy relaxing diving, still need multi-gas mode, but having things like current PO2 and other things on the OC-Tec screen are just information I don't need to see during the whole dive. It happens to be nice for recreational nitrox users, and it may get them more sales, but I don't think that was their primary focus.

Oh, other thing I'm surprised hasn't come up in this thread for the "recreational" market is all of the warning beeps and what not, doubt you'll ever see that put in either.

compass is unlikely, the module to put it in isn't very large, but again, most tech divers don't have much of a use for digital compass on their computer. The NERD having it is nice because on a rebreather you quite often run out of forearm real estate for a compass, so throwing it in was quite nice of them, but similar to the Q having the digital compass, there weren't a lot of people that paid for the upgrade, so while they still have it in there, it's not really something they push.

Not sure there is a great model for breathing surface O2, and don't know of anyone who does it regularly, breathing O2 at depth is much more effective at offgassing N2, so if you're worried about it, sit at depth for an extra 5 minutes.

 

[Father]

Not sure if they were overlooked so much as considered and ignored as not worth the typing time. Since you sound rather butt-hurt, I suppose I'll indulge you.

Is it against this forum's Code of Conduct for me to say you're a douche? Because if it is I definitely won't say that.

---------- Post added September 1st, 2014 at 11:06 PM ----------

Oh, other thing I'm surprised hasn't come up in this thread for the "recreational" market is all of the warning beeps and what not, doubt you'll ever see that put in either.

compass is unlikely, the module to put it in isn't very large, but again, most tech divers don't have much of a use for digital compass on their computer. The NERD having it is nice because on a rebreather you quite often run out of forearm real estate for a compass, so throwing it in was quite nice of them, but similar to the Q having the digital compass, there weren't a lot of people that paid for the upgrade, so while they still have it in there, it's not really something they push.

Not sure there is a great model for breathing surface O2, and don't know of anyone who does it regularly, breathing O2 at depth is much more effective at offgassing N2, so if you're worried about it, sit at depth for an extra 5 minutes.

Well said. Thanks for the "positive" input.

 

[Ramon Fregoso]

It calls my attention that Shearwater has not participated in this thread.
as an owner of a Predator and a Petrel I've thought they will have something to say.
Weird.

 

[Oldbear]

Is it against this forum's Code of Conduct for me to say you're a douche? Because if it is I definitely won't say that.

---------- Post added September 1st, 2014 at 11:06 PM ----------



Well said. Thanks for the "positive" input.

Father...if you want to try a Petrel call me at 5-3185 I have no problems loaning one to you for a weekend in the lagoon. But I have not downloaded the Nitrox Rec download; I haven't decided if I want to or not.

As a note to this thread Tech Divers typically adhere to a very simple method of gear configuration, redundancy and minimizing failures. Most of the posters above subscribe to the DIR methodology in one form or another and are very passionate about their type of diving. The Petrel was designed with them in mind and as you can see they love it very much...as do I. Recreational divers now are heading very fast to computer based dive planning. So SI is very useful to them as most of them couldn't read the fine print notes on a table telling them to wait 12-24 hours... As far as an integrated compass, this makes no sense to a Tech diver as we all know that the compass goes on our left wrist and held by bungee cord (again the simple basic equipment). We want our Tech computers to tell us depth, time, and manage different gas blends and a few parameters that a Rec diver would never consider.

I like all of your ideas...very much. I have been in contact with Ron R. with Atomic as they design their new "Wrist Mounted" (AI) Cobalt computer. This computer is being designed with all of your requests in it for the Rec Diver.

I hope that SW keep the Petrel for Tech diving and Atomic keeps the wrist mounted AI Cobalt (or whatever name it comes out as) for Rec Diving. When I compare my Cobalt to my Petrel the Cobalt is a much better computer than the Petrel...for Rec Diving. When I compare my Petrel to my Cobalt the Petrel is a much better computer than the Cobalt...for Tech Diving.

 

[Father]

Father...if you want to try a Petrel call me at 5-3185 I have no problems loaning one to you for a weekend in the lagoon. But I have not downloaded the Nitrox Rec download; I haven't decided if I want to or not.

As a note to this thread Tech Divers typically adhere to a very simple method of gear configuration, redundancy and minimizing failures. Most of the posters above subscribe to the DIR methodology in one form or another and are very passionate about their type of diving. The Petrel was designed with them in mind and as you can see they love it very much...as do I. Recreational divers now are heading very fast to computer based dive planning. So SI is very useful to them as most of them couldn't read the fine print notes on a table telling them to wait 12-24 hours... As far as an integrated compass, this makes no sense to a Tech diver as we all know that the compass goes on our left wrist and held by bungee cord (again the simple basic equipment). We want our Tech computers to tell us depth, time, and manage different gas blends and a few parameters that a Rec diver would never consider.

I like all of your ideas...very much. I have been in contact with Ron R. with Atomic as they design their new "Wrist Mounted" (AI) Cobalt computer. This computer is being designed with all of your requests in it for the Rec Diver.

I hope that SW keep the Petrel for Tech diving and Atomic keeps the wrist mounted AI Cobalt (or whatever name it comes out as) for Rec Diving. When I compare my Cobalt to my Petrel the Cobalt is a much better computer than the Petrel...for Rec Diving. When I compare my Petrel to my Cobalt the Petrel is a much better computer than the Cobalt...for Tech Diving.

Thanks Michael. Good info.
I actually bought the Petrel a little over a week ago.
The Cobalt is interesting too. Looks like is has some great features. Priced a little beyond what I'm looking to drop though. That was one of the many reasons I was sold on the Petrel. I guess if the Petrel were loaded with everything I was mentioning it would probably bump it up to about the same price as that Cobalt. Nothing is free.
I'm still getting used to the Petrel, but obviously not able to take full advantage of everything is has to offer because I'm diving on Kwaj. We both know how limited we are here.
Thanks for the input. I'm sure you've seen me around... I'm the only diver on Kwaj with one leg.

 

[Scared Silly]

A couple of comments from and for the peanut gallery. While I have zero knowledge of Shearwater's business model the fact that they released a recreational mode for the Petrel says they are listening/watching the market. For instance, it is only in the past bit that recreational computers have come with color displays. The Atomic Cobalt kicks butt on the recreational side but alas it is just that a recreational computer. (FWIW many people have nudged AA to incorporate some tech features - so it goes both ways). So for someone who wants a clear color display computer on their wrist the Petrel kicks butt regardless on the mode.

Case in point my wife really liked her Suunto Cobra which is AI. It is a console and is just there. She has been using it for over ten years with hundreds of dives on it. However, this past trip after a couple of dives that were recreational deco dives where we compared computers and info she decided that it was time to make the switch. My wife will be joining me in Bikini in a couple of years. It might be the only time in her life (mine too for that matter) that she does bunch of planned deco Tri-mix dives but it will be one computer for all dives.

AI - I used an AI computer for a while. Liked the feature, especially as recorded my SAC. But I am back to a B&G SPG. I can pretty much look at my computer and know my remaining gas within a few hundred psi. For a recreational dive I may not look at my SPG until 20-30 minutes into the dive. AI certainly has it place.

BlueTooth - the signal is greatly degraded underwater as such it is a non starter.

Electronic compasses - in general they are PITA. Get a good analog compass, the Suunto SK7 was the de-facto standard for years but they are going to get replaced by the Pelagic version as that module is half the cost. (Had I known the Suunto replacement module was so damn expensive I would made the switch already but my shop ordered one for me and did not think to ask about the price.)


For the OP - you are asking the right questions and some mfg. are listening. For instance, the new Aeris does much of what you are wanting: AERIS : A300 CS OLED and it is geared for recreational divers.

That said enjoy the Shearwater Petrel for what it is - a kick butt wrist computer that will serve your diving needs for a long time to come.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I'm not always sure why customers feel they have to so adamantly protest against people who suggest some product feature which doesn't affect them in any way.

If the Petrel included AI, you could still just not use it. I imagine that if they put in noise alarms, you would be able to disable those, as well. I doubt that Shearwater adding those features would harm you at all.

Technical divers tend to be vehemently against AI, to the point that I wonder if they worry it's a feature that will bleed into their computers via some electron osmosis?

In fact, technical divers seem to sometimes be very outspoken about a whole host of features that they consider anathema, but which clearly aren't as bad as we think, for all the hundreds of thousands of recreational dives done safely, with great enjoyment and pleasure, conducted yearly in BC's, some with levers for the inflator, and integrated weights, with floppy fins, masks with purge valves and a snorkel on the side, with a dangling octo and SPG, a yoke valve and a beeping, AI computer.

Yes, recreational divers are just as capable as technical divers of just enjoying a dive. Experiencing the underwater world and emerging with a smile on their face. In fact, some emerge with more of a smile than us technical divers, due to their much lighter gear!

And, why is AI bad? Because it's a failure point? Lots of gear is a failure point, but sometimes the small added risk of a failure point (do you know anyone who died because their AI transmitter leaked? It's a HP port anyways which we all know have a very slow loss of gas compared to an LP risk. Yes, an inflator hose for your drysuit is more of a risk than an AI transmitter!) outweighs the huge risk of mental failure points.

Now, I don't use AI. I'm a very loyal Shearwater customer. It's the best computer on the market right now, hands down. But, I know several people who died because they ran out of gas. Some of the brightest, best minds in scuba diving have died because they ran out of gas. It's not a skills problem.

Cars are starting to come with technology to warn you about drivers on every side of you, as well as yourself. They tell you when someone is coming up fast on you, when you are coming up fast on someone else, and when there is a car in your blind spot as you change lanes. And, they tell you when you are acting drunk or drowsy.

Technology cannot, should not, and hopefully will not ever replace a competent driver or diver that is paying attention to their gauges and surroundings. But, we've seen very safe drivers who had a very small, very short mental lapse or tunnel vision, and caused a fatal accident. AI is one technology that, when implemented right, could help reduce those risks in diving.

And when we have it, if you don't want it, then just don't install it. But, to claim that an idea is bad because it got started in a "realm" of diving that you consider inferior, and to berate people who ask if there is a possibility of that technology being implemented in a very smart way by the best computer company in the industry, is just something I cannot understand.

TL;DR I think AI could be useful if implemented right. if anyone is going to make AI that works, and reduces diver risk of running out of air, it's Shearwater. I think it's great that someone asked the question.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I'm not always sure why customers feel they have to so adamantly protest against people who suggest some product feature which doesn't affect them in any way.

If the Petrel included AI, you could still just not use it. I imagine that if they put in noise alarms, you would be able to disable those, as well. I doubt that Shearwater adding those features would harm you at all.

I don't want the extra hardware or code necessary to provide either option in the box, nor do I want to pay for it any more than I want to pay for a Fisher connector when all I need is a SA computer. If SW decided to implement a third hardware line to provide these options, you'd hear not a peep from me.

I know several people who died because they ran out of gas. Some of the brightest, best minds in scuba diving have died because they ran out of gas. It's not a skills problem.

That rather depends on how narrowly you define skills problem and why they ran out of something to breathe. I'm very interested to hear you tell me about a scenario where someone died for want of breathing gas and it wasn't (1) due to lousy dive planning/execution, and/or, (2) something so catastrophic that some silly AI beeping alarm would have just been rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[tstormdiver]

I dive both a Petrel (Rec & Tech), another Petrel (rebreather monitor & control) & an Oceanic VT4.0 (AI) (Rec only). To be honest, I do not pay much attention to the AI when Rec diving, as I also have an SPG that I use most,... just habit, I suppose. It begs to ask, shouldn't an SPG or even an AI really only be used to confirm the air consumption of the diver? Except, perhaps only in the case of a brand new diver (which it should really even be taught at that level IMO) or a diver diving a new configuation Singles-> doubles or even to rebreather, where the amount of gas carried or consumed is different, shouldn't a well trained/ experienced diver really know where his/ her air consumption should be, without having to rely on the SPG or AI to tell them? I pretty well know where my gas is during a dive without having the SPG tell me where it is. It only confirms it.

That said, I am impartial to any extras on the Shearwaters, as long as I can enable/ disable the features I want/ do not want. I have the recreational mode downloaded on my Petrel units,... No, I don't use it, even when diving recreationally, I find the VPM is adequate for the recreational diving I do. As a curiousity, I did notice that the recreational mode on my rebreather control Petrel is disbled completely,... I can understand with the functions that must be in operation to monitor & ontrol the rebreather,... Just a curiousity.