PETE SPOKE!!! (AND WE RECORDED IT)

[lowviz]

No apology necessary, I appreciate your thoughts. I did get a very interesting response to a question I asked in the Zoom Seekers discussion. It can be found at 1:13:30, if interested.

 

[drrich2]

The demographic in the session, though, gave me some pause. I’m not sure what to make of that.

I think what we're seeing there is a combination of 2 factors; they're located in California, and the California dive scene evolved early so they've got local divers with a long history of (and still engaged in) the dive seen.

...but don't be talking about the possibilities of the industry getting new blood and put new divers down on the same breath.

I understand your point; I think we can see this issue come up in a range of fields, vocational or recreational. New blood is necessary to keep a field alive. That new blood comes from generations shaped by different norms, formative experiences and environments, and some of them are bound to irritate some of the old guard at times (note: you can see this in articles where old physicians comment on the newer ones, too). And that's on top of the reasons any of us can get on each other's nerves.

I enjoyed the 'view from the top' perspective the Chairman provided, and how things have changed over time (e.g.: the impact of Facebook on Scuba Board). And IIRC, there was a comparison of the (revenue?) generation of a Wal-mart Super Center vs the entire recreational scuba industry that was unflattering?

Richard.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I think what we're seeing there is a combination of 2 factors; they're located in California, and the California dive scene evolved early so they've got local divers with a long history of (and still engaged in) the dive scene.

I think it's simpler than that and this is something I've espoused for a longtime. because we have a multitude of dive shops in SoCal, my non-peer-reviewed unscientific conclusions is that most dive shops attract a demographic that closely matches that of the shop owner. I'm an . . . older guy . . . and the demographic I attract for both my trips and Zoom Seekers generally reflects that. That doesn't mean there weren't a couple of young-uns in there (there were) but basically we are like to settle into groups where we feel we identify with the group.

Look at it this way, if you weren't a tech-diving person, you probably wouldn't frequent a tech-heavy shop. If you're a cave diver, you probably didn't frequent a shop that wasn't into caving. And if you're not into caving, you probably wouldn't go to a store where that's the main focus.

New blood is necessary to keep a field alive.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. You need new blood if you keep losing customers. (This is the age-old problem of the dive industry as a whole.) But if you can hold on to your customers, you may not need nor have room for newbies.

I'll use myself as an example. I mainly run foreign trips now, many of which are liveaboards. I've got a good core of regular, repeat customers. If the boat only have 15 spots and I can sell all 15 to my existing base, I don't have room for new customers. And because I've got a business model of running small-group trips, even if I'm land-based, I don't want to take 50 people to a resort regardless of how much money I can make from it.

There's another thing at play here and that's dispensable income and, on a slightly lesser level, time. I cater to a demographic - and it's where I am myself so I think that's one reason it works - that has dispensable income, has time to do trips, and is happy to spend some extra money for comfort without blinking an eye.

When we talk about "newer" divers, we're also usually talking younger divers which mean they may not have a lot of money to spend and they may not have time to spend it if they do because of work of family/children obligations. So, strictly from a business standpoint, why market to people who regardless of whether they have the desire or not, simply aren't able to use the product you're trying to offer them?

 

[drrich2]

I don't know that that's necessarily true. You need new blood if you keep losing customers. (This is the age-old problem of the dive industry as a whole.) But if you can hold on to your customers, you may not need nor have room for newbies.

I see your point. 'You' in the singular sense (literally, you as an individual trip organizer) have a time-limited investment in your portion of the scuba industry - no matter how well it goes, you will only live, and work, so long. So if you've got an adequate paying customer base with a good portion who'll outlive either you or your business (whichever ends first), you may indeed never need new blood coming in.

What I'm thinking of is the recreational dive 'industry' going forward. People debate whether it should be growing or is about the right size, or shrinkage is inevitable. While opinions differ, I think most of us are personally invested in recreational diving that we'd like to see it continue for future generations. Not just from the perspective of dive shop and gear sellers and instructors, but as people who love this hobby and want to share it with future generations.

The time and income thing is a good point; sometimes the 'new blood' comes with a few miles on the odometer!

Richard.

 

[Marie13]

Just watched it. Sam was a hoot!

 

[lexvil]

It was nice to see Sam 3, haven’t seen his posting lately.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

What I'm thinking of is the recreational dive 'industry' going forward.

I think the problem - and I've said this for years - is that we have a fatal flaw in the construct of the industry.
• Why do people want to get certified? So they can dive.
• So they have to go to a dive shop (or independent instructor) to get certified.
• Does the dive shop, post-class, then take them diving? No.
• The dive shop tries all they can to sell them more gear (beyond basic) and more classes.
• Did anyone reading this get certified because they wanted the privilege of buying gear or the ability to take more classes? IMHO, no.
• They got certified because they want to go dive and see things.
• Now ask yourselves how many dive shops really focus on taking people diving instead of selling them gear and more classes.
• And that, to me, is the problem with the industry.
• As a whole, we spend our efforts trying to get people we just certified to buy gear and classes.
• When they don't, we then recruit a new group to certify in hopes of selling THEM more gear and classes.
• And because we're too busy organizing the next class, we don't have time to satisfy the desire we helped create in them.
• Essentially, we create new customers and then fail at fulfilling the reason they came to us in the first place.
• And that's the essential problem with the business model of the dive industry. We simply don't give the people what they want so we have to constantly re-invent our customer base which doesn't leave us time to give the customers what they want.

 

[tursiops]

I think the problem - and I've said this for years - is that we have a fatal flaw in the construct of the industry.
• Why do people want to get certified? So they can dive.
• So they have to go to a dive shop (or independent instructor) to get certified.
• Does the dive shop, post-class, then take them diving? No.
• The dive shop tries all they can to sell them more gear (beyond basic) and more classes.
• Did anyone reading this get certified because they wanted the privilege of buying gear or the ability to take more classes? IMHO, no.
• They got certified because they want to go dive and see things.
• Now ask yourselves how many dive shops really focus on taking people diving instead of selling them gear and more classes.
• And that, to me, is the problem with the industry.
• As a whole, we spend our efforts trying to get people we just certified to buy gear and classes.
• When they don't, we then recruit a new group to certify in hopes of selling THEM more gear and classes.
• And because we're too busy organizing the next class, we don't have time to satisfy the desire we helped create in them.
• Essentially, we create new customers and then fail at fulfilling the reason they came to us in the first place.
• And that's the essential problem with the business model of the dive industry. We simply don't give the people what they want so we have to constantly re-invent our customer base which doesn't leave us time to give the customers what they want.

Perhaps this is a NAUI perspective?
The PADI perspective for dive shops is the four Es (uses to be just the first three): Education, Equipment, Entertainment, and Environment. Entertainment is where the travel (and clubs and events) comes in. You survive by working the balance on those 4 topics, and Equipment has gone WAY down as a good source of income...and you almost give the Education away, so playing out the Entertainment and the Environment is your game.

 

[Pressurehead]

Watched the first 10min and woke up near the end.
I needed a good afternoon nap, thanks.
Some of the people [old men like me] on the 'zoom' looked like they needed one too.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Perhaps this is a NAUI perspective?

That doesn't sound a bit snotty or condescending.

The PADI perspective for dive shops is the four Es (uses to be just the first three): Education, Equipment, Entertainment, and Environment. Entertainment is where the travel (and clubs and events) comes in. You survive by working the balance on those 4 topics, and Equipment has gone WAY down as a good source of income...and you almost give the Education away, so playing out the Entertainment and the Environment is your game.

You're talking theoretical, I'm talking Real World. Some stores do one trip a year, a few do more. But try to find a store - let alone stores - that survive on just classes and travel. Few and far between.