Acrobatics in 50 cm of water? My hat is off to you, sir!
panic attack after 300 dives
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Acrobatics in 50 cm of water? My hat is off to you, sir!
funrecdiver
Contributor
Acrobatics in 50 cm of water? My hat is off to you, sir!
Hahahaha..... you are funny, TSandM
A rising 50cm drift dive means the tides are rushing in (rising) at a rate of 50 cm per hour.
We generally call this "rising 50"... or in this case, we might say "ripping 50" since 50 cm/hour creates very strong currents in some parts of the world (depending on topography of course). I'm talking about the Gulf of Thailand where there are some pretty strong currents at times in the north part of the Gulf.
One diver might ask "What it look like this morning?"
The other diver might reply, while looking at the tide tables, "It's slack to rising 10 this morning, but after lunch it will be ripping 40 to 50, so let's do the wreck dive in the AM so we don't get blown off the wreck and then a rippin' drift dive later today...." (Hahaha, we use rippin' a lot, LOL ... local diver's jargon or is this a universal "thang"?)
We have a lot of current where I dive, so each day we plan our dives around the tides. We generally dive wrecks on slack to 10 cm/hr periods because it is easy to get blown off the wreck(s) when currents are strong. Some of us seek ripping current for thrilling drift dives. There are a few very experienced divers here who actually dive a particular wreck known for very strong current when it is "ripping 50" (or higher... if lucky) and they fly into (toward) and then over the wreck with the strong current and then enter into a vortex where they are spinning around and around until the vortex decides to "spit" them out. One guy in particular (who has 1000s of drift and wreck dives, don't try this if you don't have a lot of experience, naturally) says it is really interesting when his bubbles are going down vs. up in the vortex! I have not worked my way up to "ripping 50s or 60s into the vortex" yet, but maybe someday
.... Now, I'm hoping to master the "rippin' drift and dump air into (under) the buoy, grab the chain to the wreck" move (before getting blown off the line and way past the wreck), later this year! Drift diving can be very fun! (But don't go "ripping around" without a lot of experience and practice, of course. It takes skill, practice and teamwork, naturally...... and I'm just a beginner at drift diving in strong current.... ).
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lamont
Contributor
I'd actually argue that both are correct.
What you're looking at is analogous to an "accident chain". In many cases such chains of events lead only to bad/frustrating dives, but there's a link of related events and actions and choices that lead to the less-than-desirable outcome. The CO2 buildup definitely was a link in this chain. The lack of a good plan that reduced exertion was a previous link on the chain. You can address this any number of ways:
- being in better shape to produce less CO2
- knowing how to recognize CO2 loading an exertion and what to do on the dive
- planning dives for lower exertion
- using a less viscous gas like helium to help with breathing
- getting your regs tuned so WOB is lower
Those points all address different links in the chain leading to a dive like this, and none of them are any more of an "underlying issue" than the others. They can all be addressed.
funrecdiver
Contributor
Hi lamont,
Nice post. I agree with you 100% if we are talking primarily about incident analysis. Incident prevention, on the other hand, requires a different perspective.
Using your chain-of-events discussion, we can illustrate this, for example:
I = A + B + C + D + E + F+ ...
... where I is the eventual incident and A to F are the various events in the chain-of-events, where A occurs before B and B occurs before C, etc. In other words, A causes B, which causes C, on down the chain.
If A equals a poor dive plan (in this case a poor entry and descent plan), and B equals physical over-exertion based on underlying fitness (a sub factor of B) and C equals CO2 build-up and then D equals shallow/rapid breathing and more over-exertion and CO2, and E equals serious fatigue and stress and then F equals abort the dive .....
What my post mentioned is that, in this (simple) case, a proper dive plan that minimizes the physical exertion to reach the descent line is designed to eliminate the subsequent "chain of events". In the example "abort dive" case in this thread, there would be no incident (abort dive) because the diver would not have been serious fatigued (and/or had CO2 build-up) and aborted the dive if they had entered the water and approached the descent line in a way that did not cause over-exertion (and excess CO2).
If A leads to B, which leads to C, which leads to D, E, etc. in a chain-of-events, and we eliminate A, we, by definition of "chain-of-events" also remove B, C, D, E, ... when discussing incident prevention versus an analysis of the entire chain. As mentioned, incident prevention is a different kettle of sea urchins than incident analysis.
Earlier, I opined that the underlying cause of this incident ("abort dive at surface") was a poor dive plan (for entry and approach to the descent line), which means that if this issue was removed (and there was a dive plan where the divers were not required to be over-exerted and then fatigued), there would have not been any CO2 buildup (in this particular chain), because the diver should (would) not have been fatigued.
As mentioned, I complete agree with you that all elements in the chain-of-events are factors in the final incident. On the other hand, if you eliminate a link at the beginning of the chain which causes other links, then the underlying cause, from a incident prevention perspective, weights much more heavily on the poor dive plan, in this simple case, versus the physiology of CO2 build-up.
When any swimmer is swimming without anything to hold on to, against strong current, and they have to over-exert themselves and become fatigued to get to the descent line, the entire incident of fatigue and "aborting the dive on the surface" could have been eliminated by entering the water in a way where the diver does not have to fight the current to get to the buoy at the descent line.
I guess one way to view could be in light of those old stories about the older man beating the younger man on the tennis court, not by the strength of his serves, or the quickness of his feet, but on conserving energy, strategically placing the ball to make his opponent over-exert himself, and then wear down his energetic tennis opponent.
Yes, we can recommend the diver to spend more time working on cardio, and hope to make him more fit to swim against strong current (that usually comes with more daily or weekly diving, step-by-step); which is always good; but in my view, it is generally better to plan dives that do not require physical over-exertion and fatigue because this is recreational diving and should be fun, not an exhaustive surface swim in strong current just to get to a descent line to begin the dive.
My gentle reply to you is that you may be overly generalizing in saying that "none of them [the events in the chain] are any more an underlying issue than the others", because in a chain-of-events, the earlier events lead to subsequent events, and therefore, the earlier events are certainly more of an "underlying issue" than the others, according to the theory of causality (cause and effect).
Nice post. I agree with you 100% if we are talking primarily about incident analysis. Incident prevention, on the other hand, requires a different perspective.
Using your chain-of-events discussion, we can illustrate this, for example:
I = A + B + C + D + E + F+ ...
... where I is the eventual incident and A to F are the various events in the chain-of-events, where A occurs before B and B occurs before C, etc. In other words, A causes B, which causes C, on down the chain.
If A equals a poor dive plan (in this case a poor entry and descent plan), and B equals physical over-exertion based on underlying fitness (a sub factor of B) and C equals CO2 build-up and then D equals shallow/rapid breathing and more over-exertion and CO2, and E equals serious fatigue and stress and then F equals abort the dive .....
What my post mentioned is that, in this (simple) case, a proper dive plan that minimizes the physical exertion to reach the descent line is designed to eliminate the subsequent "chain of events". In the example "abort dive" case in this thread, there would be no incident (abort dive) because the diver would not have been serious fatigued (and/or had CO2 build-up) and aborted the dive if they had entered the water and approached the descent line in a way that did not cause over-exertion (and excess CO2).
If A leads to B, which leads to C, which leads to D, E, etc. in a chain-of-events, and we eliminate A, we, by definition of "chain-of-events" also remove B, C, D, E, ... when discussing incident prevention versus an analysis of the entire chain. As mentioned, incident prevention is a different kettle of sea urchins than incident analysis.
Earlier, I opined that the underlying cause of this incident ("abort dive at surface") was a poor dive plan (for entry and approach to the descent line), which means that if this issue was removed (and there was a dive plan where the divers were not required to be over-exerted and then fatigued), there would have not been any CO2 buildup (in this particular chain), because the diver should (would) not have been fatigued.
As mentioned, I complete agree with you that all elements in the chain-of-events are factors in the final incident. On the other hand, if you eliminate a link at the beginning of the chain which causes other links, then the underlying cause, from a incident prevention perspective, weights much more heavily on the poor dive plan, in this simple case, versus the physiology of CO2 build-up.
When any swimmer is swimming without anything to hold on to, against strong current, and they have to over-exert themselves and become fatigued to get to the descent line, the entire incident of fatigue and "aborting the dive on the surface" could have been eliminated by entering the water in a way where the diver does not have to fight the current to get to the buoy at the descent line.
I guess one way to view could be in light of those old stories about the older man beating the younger man on the tennis court, not by the strength of his serves, or the quickness of his feet, but on conserving energy, strategically placing the ball to make his opponent over-exert himself, and then wear down his energetic tennis opponent.
Yes, we can recommend the diver to spend more time working on cardio, and hope to make him more fit to swim against strong current (that usually comes with more daily or weekly diving, step-by-step); which is always good; but in my view, it is generally better to plan dives that do not require physical over-exertion and fatigue because this is recreational diving and should be fun, not an exhaustive surface swim in strong current just to get to a descent line to begin the dive.
My gentle reply to you is that you may be overly generalizing in saying that "none of them [the events in the chain] are any more an underlying issue than the others", because in a chain-of-events, the earlier events lead to subsequent events, and therefore, the earlier events are certainly more of an "underlying issue" than the others, according to the theory of causality (cause and effect).
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dumpsterDiver
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Lots of very good advice and information.
I practice swimming in the pool with a snorkel and fins and at the end of my swim, I try to sprint the last 50 yards. I have an unlimited source of air from the snorkel, but at the end of the swim, I feel pretty bad, gasping for air and often feel a strong desire to rip the mask off and remove the snorkel and also clutch the pool side. I force myself to continue a cool down of kicking for 25 yards..
Most days, I have to conciously fight the feeling and I have never HAD to remove the mask, but the impulse to do so is very evident. I try to use it as an opportunity to remind myself that there are limits to the level of exertion that I can deal with in the water and to also train myself to be as comfortable in the water as possible, even when very stressed.
Personally, I think that all scuba divers should do a test swim in a pool with an exertion level close to their maximum aerobic abilities (maybe just a 50 yrd underwater race would be enough for most people if they tried super hard). This simple little exercise can be very useful in teaching divers how crappy it feels to be really out of breath and how to stay underwater and rely only upon the regulator to breath.
If someone has never really exerted themself while using a regualtor or they are in much worse aerobic condition than they realize, the intensity of the discomfort could be surprising and easily initiate the panic chain. Of course, improper (shallow) breathing will quickly make the situation unbearable.
I practice swimming in the pool with a snorkel and fins and at the end of my swim, I try to sprint the last 50 yards. I have an unlimited source of air from the snorkel, but at the end of the swim, I feel pretty bad, gasping for air and often feel a strong desire to rip the mask off and remove the snorkel and also clutch the pool side. I force myself to continue a cool down of kicking for 25 yards..
Most days, I have to conciously fight the feeling and I have never HAD to remove the mask, but the impulse to do so is very evident. I try to use it as an opportunity to remind myself that there are limits to the level of exertion that I can deal with in the water and to also train myself to be as comfortable in the water as possible, even when very stressed.
Personally, I think that all scuba divers should do a test swim in a pool with an exertion level close to their maximum aerobic abilities (maybe just a 50 yrd underwater race would be enough for most people if they tried super hard). This simple little exercise can be very useful in teaching divers how crappy it feels to be really out of breath and how to stay underwater and rely only upon the regulator to breath.
If someone has never really exerted themself while using a regualtor or they are in much worse aerobic condition than they realize, the intensity of the discomfort could be surprising and easily initiate the panic chain. Of course, improper (shallow) breathing will quickly make the situation unbearable.
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LEMDiver
Registered
deleted...
still learning my way around., see below
still learning my way around., see below
LEMDiver
Registered
valeska:
Hi Valeska. You are getting a lot of good advice from the posts above. My bet is a CO2 build up. I always tell my students to do a full exhalation and slow deep breaths. The full exhalation gets rid of CO2 built up in the lungs. If you start to feel panic stop think and breathe. And sometimes the smart diver will just call off the dive. If sounds like your husband handled the problem well.
I had a similar incident about seven months ago. I would not call it a panic attack or an anxiety attack, but during the course of the dive I felt like panic could have been "right around the corner." I am a very experienced diver with almost 3600 logged dives. I have dives in all types of conditions and had never experienced anything remotely similar in all my years of diving.
We had what I would consider a mild to moderate current with fairly decent viz. The sea surface was flat calm. The dive started out poorly as my dive computer (a wrist unit with a transmitter for air supply) fell off my wrist sometime between my back roll and my descent. I was not concerned as I felt I could quickly find my computer at depth as viz was pretty good. When I descended to 60 feet, it became increasingly difficult to breath through my regulator. I tried switching to my octo but had the same experience. I quickly determined that there was a problem with my tank valve. I inverted myself and found that my tank valve was mostly closed (the DM must have turned it closed before I did my entry, as my wife and I checked our air prior to entering the water). While I was inverted I got a big mouthful of sea water and started hacking through my regulator. I fully opened my tank valve and alleviated the air supply problem, but between coughing, not knowing where my computer was or how much air was in my tank I felt the beginning pangs of anxiety. The feeling was compounded because my wife (who is an experienced diver and usually stays very close to me) decided it would be a good time to wander off and take some pictures. I am usually very relaxed during my dives, but in this case I know my heart rate was up and I was not enjoying the dive. I found my computer, found my buddy, and thumbed the dive.
While I feel I was always in control during the dive, I was surprised that a series of relatively minor chain of events made me feel uneasy. I never had a panic attack, but to deny I felt a sense of anxiety about the dive would not be accurate. In the past I had experienced much worse situations (someone stealing one of my cave reels at Ginny, buddies silting out caves/wrecks, light failures, freaked out divers, etc.) but never experienced any noticeable stress. This time I did feel it and it demonstrated to me that it doesn't matter how experienced a diver you are, sometimes it is best to just call the dive.
We had what I would consider a mild to moderate current with fairly decent viz. The sea surface was flat calm. The dive started out poorly as my dive computer (a wrist unit with a transmitter for air supply) fell off my wrist sometime between my back roll and my descent. I was not concerned as I felt I could quickly find my computer at depth as viz was pretty good. When I descended to 60 feet, it became increasingly difficult to breath through my regulator. I tried switching to my octo but had the same experience. I quickly determined that there was a problem with my tank valve. I inverted myself and found that my tank valve was mostly closed (the DM must have turned it closed before I did my entry, as my wife and I checked our air prior to entering the water). While I was inverted I got a big mouthful of sea water and started hacking through my regulator. I fully opened my tank valve and alleviated the air supply problem, but between coughing, not knowing where my computer was or how much air was in my tank I felt the beginning pangs of anxiety. The feeling was compounded because my wife (who is an experienced diver and usually stays very close to me) decided it would be a good time to wander off and take some pictures. I am usually very relaxed during my dives, but in this case I know my heart rate was up and I was not enjoying the dive. I found my computer, found my buddy, and thumbed the dive.
While I feel I was always in control during the dive, I was surprised that a series of relatively minor chain of events made me feel uneasy. I never had a panic attack, but to deny I felt a sense of anxiety about the dive would not be accurate. In the past I had experienced much worse situations (someone stealing one of my cave reels at Ginny, buddies silting out caves/wrecks, light failures, freaked out divers, etc.) but never experienced any noticeable stress. This time I did feel it and it demonstrated to me that it doesn't matter how experienced a diver you are, sometimes it is best to just call the dive.
scuba066
Contributor
My panic came at dive 87. My first cold water dive with 14 mm of wet suit and a ton of weight. The descent was crazy and poor viz added to the disorientation. One of the rules in handling in flight emergencies flashed in my head, maintain aircraft control, I really heard my IP pilots voice in my head. And, from one of my favorite dive instructors, recognize panic early. After bouncing of the bottom, much to my embarrassment, I recovered to have a nice dive. We dive into an environment very hazardous to humans, training can really make the difference.
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