Panama City 3-01-08 (late trip report)

[magicwanz]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the regs....

Yes sir, I think so, agree to disagree. Between the two of us I think we have posted more than enough rules and regs for anyone to make an informed decision on this matter.

Just a question, though, I already think I know the answer. Why don't you just put them in a bag. Probably because it is a pain in the arse, I hate dangling bags too, might be easier to string them. But if you are targeting spiny's as well you would have a bag at your disposal anyway?

 

[magicwanz]

A) Go to the Gulf and see how they all do it there

And exactly what do they do "there" as opposed to the rest of the spearfishing world (Brasil, South Africa, Costa Rica)?



I see your screen name Dive Costa Rica. Do you really dive in Costa Rica or is this just a cool screen name? I dove in Puntareanes (Los Suenos and Quepos) for years, I will be there again in short time for the April yellowfin run. Last year I managed a 98# yellowfin, my best in CR was a 132# yellowfin three years ago out of Los Suenos. I'm interested in your Costa Rican diving experiences, who did you dive with? Small world down there ya know...

As I said before, I would love to come over with Pat, his operation gets good fish. I saw on his website where they even shot a killer wahoo!!! I do plan on contacting Pat for a trip in May or June, I have to get it in there before the July yellowfin run in Ocean City, MD.

 

[magicwanz]

I would encourage you to contact FWC and see if your interpretation of the regs is what they say is the law, every time in the past this topic has come up they site the same regs I have and say there is no prohibition on shovelnose or slippers except taking eggbearing females.

Pat, I have posed the following question to the FWC:

"subject:

spearing slipper lobster

question:

Hello,

I have a question regarding the legality of spearing slipper lobster. The marine fisheries regulations "summary" includes lobster as a species that are prohibited for harvest by spearing under "http://myfwc.com/marine/spearing.htm". However, under 68B-20.005 (Specific Authority Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. Law Implemented Art. IV, Sec. 9, Fla. Const. History–New 1-1-98, Formerly 46-20.005) the Prohibited Harvest of Certain Species does not include lobster. There seems to be a contradiction here. Simply put, is it legal to spear slipper lobster in Florida? Please advise.

Thanks!!!"

The reference number to my question is: 080317-000121

Fair enough? I will post the reply.

 

[PatMyGreen]

Yeah, I hate carrying the extra drag around. I already have enough crap dangling off of me on retractors that the last thing I need is one more piece of gear I doubt I will use. Spinys are reasonably rare enough up here even in the deep water that unless I am targeting them specifically (almost never) I have never needed a bag. I did recently find 2 7-7.5# spinys on a deep dive where I had a 7 minute deco stop and I was really wishing I had a bag as they never quieted down. I was afraid of dropping either one but more afraid of letting go of my gun. Our grouper and some snapper will not fit in a lobster bag if everything is going according to plan so I would either have to carry both a bag and a stringer, or just a stringer and deal with the spinys by hand and occasionally "knees" when I run out of hands.

I am looking forward to seeing what FWC tells you, other than an impending change on the prohibition of taking any eggbearing female any lobster species the regs have been pretty static on the rec side of things. As hard to believe as it may seem there is no prohibition in place on other types of lobsters while eggbearing! You can shoot them eggs and all, which i presume gets you a trip to hell, but not a ticket from FWC.

Edit
And in fairness to the wahoo pic, it was begging to be shot as it leisurely cruised the side of the boat nice and slow allowing me to view it 1' below the boat and 3' to the side. The deck was a mad 4 man scramble to gear up and hit the water first. Most wahoo we see aren't that curious and move alot faster. Also I am not currently permitted to take fish from Fed waters, which is the only place to get good pelagics, while I am under charter. I am definitely holding off on buying those permits for the boats until amendment 30b is passed in April. Action item 13 (i think) contains a provision that will force all federally permitted vessels to abide by the stricter set of regs (state or Fed) when there is a difference. Since most of our spearing is for gag and red groupers and red and mangrove snappers that would put that side of my operation out of business for several hard months when the only people diving in the northern gulf are the hard core spearos. They won't pay $100 a head for the opportunity at mangrove snapper and a limit of flounder (and I wouldn't either).

 

[magicwanz]

Mr. William K Daughdrill, recreational sector representative for Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council, has responded to the matter:

"The Gulf Council manages fishery resources through seven fishery management plans.
Species listed in the FMPs may be either “in the management unit” (subject to federal fishing regulations) or “in the management unit for data collection only” (landings are monitored but the species is not subject to federal fishing regulations). Federal regulations will apply in all state waters where species listed in the FMPs are “in the management unit”. Species may be periodically added or removed from the FMPs, or their classification within the FMP may be changed.

Currently, the Spiny Lobster FMP includes the following species (effective July 2003):

Spiny Lobster FMP

Species 'in the Management Unit'
spiny lobster Panulirus argus
slipper lobster Scyllarides nodifer

Species 'in the Management Unit for Data Collection Only'
spotted spiny lobster Panulirus guttatas
smooth tail lobster Panulirus laevicauda
Spanish slipper lobster Scyllarides aequinoctialis

Slipper lobster or scyllarides nodifer, are subject to Federal Regulations and gear restrictions for the Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster Fishery FMP as the species is currently included "in the Management Unit."

A complete list of authorized gear types for the Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster Fishery FMP is provided in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 50: Wildlife and Fisheries, Part 600- Magnuson-Stevens Act Provisions, Subpart H- General Provisions for Domestic Fisheries, 600.725 General prohibitions:

'It is unlawful for any person to do any of the following...
(v) The use of any gear or participation in a fishery not on the following list of authorized fisheries and gear is prohibited after December 1, 1999. A fish, regardless whether targeted, may be retained only if it is taken within a listed fishery, is taken with a gear authorized for that fishery, and is taken in conformance with all other applicable regulations. Listed gear can only be used in a manner that is consistent with existing laws and regulations. The list of fisheries and authorized gear does not, in any way, alter or supersede any definitions or regulations contained elsewhere in this chapter. A person or vessel is prohibited from engaging in fishing or employing fishing gear when such fishing gear is prohibited or restricted by regulation under an FMP or other applicable law....

IV. Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council
Gulf of Mexico Spiny Lobster Fishery (FMP)
Fishery: C. Recreational fishery
Authorized gear types: C. Dip net, bully net, pot, trap, snare, hand harvest.'

The use of spears are prohibited under the current FMP for slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer), therefore, it is unlawful to spear slipper lobster (Scyllarides nodifer) in the State of Florida."

-Mr. William K Daughdrill, recreational sector representative for Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council

 

[magicwanz]

Magic...two words... "my bad"

What did you do that was bad?

 

[magicwanz]

Also I am not currently permitted to take fish from Fed waters, which is the only place to get good pelagics, while I am under charter.

Really? That's the first time I have heard that. I thought the only difference between the Gulf and Atlantic for pelagics was the powerhead restriction for wahoo and dolphin in the Gulf. For example, in the Atlantic you are allowed to use powerheads on dolphin and wahoo and in the Gulf you are not. Other than that, I thought things were the same?!?!

 

[PatMyGreen]

Magic, I am not sure where your info came from but it wasn't William (Bill) Daughdrill of the Gulf of Mexico Council, a fellow Panama City resident. I called him this morning 850-814-5468 and he has not had any correspondence on this issue ever, he was very certain. He further advised me that he wasn't aware of any management plan for slipper lobster even under the spiny lobster FMP. He then stated that I should call Rick Leard Deputy Executive Director of the Gulf Council as he was the one most who would have a definitive answer for the Council's jurisdiction. I called Rick and decided for clarities sake we should exchange info via email so a written record would exist of the conversation I also included aftershock1's original question (can slippers be strung) a swell as your correspondence from someone claiming to be Daughdrill. Here is my email and his response:

from Capt Pat Green <patrickmgreen@gmail.com>
to rick.leard@gulfcouncil.org,
date Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 9:49 AM
subject Slipper lobster
mailed-by gmail.com

show details 9:49 AM (5 hours ago)


In a recent thread on www.scubaboard.com a member asked "... do you know if it's illegal to pierce the shovelnose with your stringer? Usually we stuff them in our BC because we're unsure if they're protected." This question has in turn set of a spirited debate. William Daughdrill was asked a slightly different version of this question (can you spear them), in which he concluded spears were not an allowed gear type under the lobster FMP and therefore in Florida it is illegal to spear them. What I would like clarification on is where exactly does this rule have jurisdiction (as in this rule only applies 9 nautical miles and further from shore in Florida, right?) That would mean the state must have a separate rule that applies to its waters? Also I feel that there is some confusion in that debate on the difference between the federal regs reference to allowable gear types versus the state of Florida's rules for spearing. In Florida "spearing" is taken to mean anything other than a hook that "pierces" the salt water product in question. To that end animals afforded the no spearing protection are not allowed to be gaffed as it pierces them. So my second question is under the federal rules for slipper lobster is it legal to capture them by hand and then place them on a metal stringer once captured by hand?

Additionally he has quoted Bill Daughdrill with the below, As per my conversation with him (Bill) this morning he has not had any such contact on this issue with anyone. I can't find an email for him listed, if you have one would you mind forwarding this little bit to him for me? The whole thread is located here if you get bored and care to read two guys who think they know everything having it out with each other.
.....Daughdrill's alleged correspondence....

from Richard Leard <rick.leard@gulfcouncil.org>
to Capt Pat Green <patrickmgreen@gmail.com>,
date Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:02 PM
subject RE: Slipper lobster
mailed-by gulfcouncil.org

hide details 12:02 PM (3 hours ago)


Reply


Pat,
As I mentioned, slipper lobster are listed in the Spiny Lobster FMP for data collection only. They are not in the management unit, and there are no federal regulations regarding their harvest. Consequently, they are not governed by the allowable gear under 50 CFR 600.725 for the Spiny Lobster FMP (only spiny lobster), and regulations of the state of Florida would apply to Floridians fishing in federal waters off Florida. The only state regulations that I found were some closed areas and the prohibition on taking egg bearing females. Additionally, I can't believe that the alleged quote below came from Bill. Particularly, the statement 'Federal regulations will apply in all state waters where species listed in the FMPs are "in the management unit"' is not true, and I think that Bill would know that. In fact as noted above, the near opposite is true. When there are no federal regulations in the EEZ, the states may impose there regulations on fishermen fishing in the EEZ, e.g., grunts, porgies, permit, pompano, etc. I hope this clears up the confusion. If you have other questions, please feel free to call on me.
Rick
(Rick's number is 813-348-1630 x228)


So, um where are you getting your data? Again the issue of Jurisdiction has come up and like I said it is what Florida has to say that matters not the gulf council. Here is the staff contact page for the Gulf Council and here is the contact page for all voting members, if anyone is as clear as mud at this point.

The full text of the spiny lobster FMP is here and nowhere does it say slippers cannot be speared.
It does say spinys are not to be speared as we have all agreed, however it does not extent this to slippers which are defined separately in the definitions and therefore considered separate in the written regs.

 

[OceanObsessed]

I can tell you guys from experience that most FWC enforcement officers (formerly Marine Patrol) don&#8217;t know the rules as well as you would expect. I would take what they say with a grain of salt. Years ago the rules were a bit different for lobster limits. I had an officer tell me that I exceeded limit because the rule was &#8220;six per person or 24 per boat whichever is less&#8221;. I told him the rule was actually &#8220;six per person or 24 per boat whichever is greater&#8221;. Luckily the officer was reasonable and asked me &#8220;are you sure?&#8221;. I said yes I am sure so he radioed another officer and confirmed that he had it wrong and sent me on my way.

Before the rules were published on the internet I use to call them yearly, prior to mini season, to check if the rules had changed and I would frequently get incorrect and inconsistent answers, depending on who answered the phone. Hopefully things have changed with them.

 

[PatMyGreen]

They are alot better now, but is sound advise to have a copy of all applicable regs or at least some reg summaries handy. The FWC officers here in PC are pretty active divers and spearos so there is alot less confusion on their part with those rules, unless a long standing rule changes like when scamp went from 20" to 16" in state waters. Having all the regs in print sounds like a tall order for most rec boaters but if you run a charter you already have to have so many publications and regs another 100 pages or so isn't that bad and can prevent having to go to court to have a judge clear you of any wrong doing, or the stigma of being ignorant or crooked.