PADI vs NAUI

[TMHeimer]

No, everything can't be made good and the same--standards, instructors, etc. Merit pay for teachers in the school system never worked--suppose the principal just doesn't like you? In Canada you have some provinces with Provincial Depts. of Ed. and some with zillions of individual school boards. Good and bad teachers in both cases--assume it's similar in the U.S. But I agree with most in that the WORST scenario is to get the govt. involved in any way.

 

[Rhenry]

Let me make a point clear, we are NOT talking about a government agency. No the public employees will not have anything to do with this concept. What we are talking about is an NGO, an agency that has the effect of law, but it is NOT a government agency, hence NGO.
The idea is to get everyone on the same page, set up as set of standards and self regulate in so far as this agency has the means to grant and rescind instructor privileges (i.e. certifications. licenses whatever you choose to call it). They would also be the only agency that can certify a diver.
The minimum qualifications to teach, to get dive qualified and so forth would be what everyone who dives would have to meet. Now like anything else, an instructor could teach more. But what is thought would have to meet the agencies criteria. Again, this is NOT a government agency, but it would still have the same effect.

 

[Blackwood]

Let me make a point clear, we are NOT talking about a government agency. No the public employees will not have anything to do with this concept. What we are talking about is an NGO, an agency that has the effect of law, but it is NOT a government agency, hence NGO.
The idea is to get everyone on the same page, set up as set of standards and self regulate in so far as this agency has the means to grant and rescind instructor privileges (i.e. certifications. licenses whatever you choose to call it). They would also be the only agency that can certify a diver.
The minimum qualifications to teach, to get dive qualified and so forth would be what everyone who dives would have to meet. Now like anything else, an instructor could teach more. But what is thought would have to meet the agencies criteria. Again, this is NOT a government agency, but it would still have the same effect.

So again, how is that better than what we have now?

 

[Rhenry]

How is this better than what we have now? what we have here is 20 agencies with 20 different programs with 20 different ideas. Is this better than one program with one set of standards and everyone on the same page? yes I think so. I see a mess and it is evident in this tread. If we had one set of standards that all understand and follow, is better than this. Just look at the mess we have, different idea of what is "qualified". I suppose you have the belief that we all teach the same thing and we are homogeneous. Sorry to say this is not the case.
Let me ask this: how is this worse than what we have now?

 

[Blackwood]

Let me ask this: how is this worse than what we have now?

Are you suggesting specific teaching methodologies and detailed plans that everyone must follow? Or an agency tasked with setting minimum standards?

If the former, maybe it has merit, though agencies don't tend to be different for the sake of being different, they are different because they believe their ideas are better. I'm not sure I'd take that freedom away from them. I don't think there is one correct approach to sport diving. For me, rigid team diving (DIR) works. But I don't begrudge others from learning to dive solo.

If the latter, it is essentially what we have now: RTSC plus the 'force of law' (something I think may bite us in the ass).

 

[Thalassamania]

Bob and others, and not to hijack the thread. What should be the standard for dive instructor. If we set another number as the limit on dives that can be met by just sitting on the bottom of your local lake as the 100 can be. The other standards are in place. What is a way to have a standard that is more in tune with your thinking? As many have said there are instructors with 1000's of dives that shouldn't teach and there are those with minimum number of dives that are great teachers. Again not sure if there is an easy way around this.

In rare cases I've made university dive instructors out of individuals who the previous semester had been students, they did fine; on the other hand I've seen individuals with thousands of dives that I did not think highly of when it came to either their diving or teaching.

So again, how is that better than what we have now?

It is not better, it is worse. It express official approval for a system that is rather poor.

 

[Rhenry]

What I am saying is we need both. You really can't have one without the other, and RTSC is not the answer. Here is why, first the group is on their own, and not all agencies belong RTSC, second they do not have any real bite. Lastly not all who belong follow the rules as it were. Yes they "follow the minimum recommended procedures" but they can't enforce anything and membership is by what suits a given agency. Each agency still runs it own program in the way they see fit, RTSC does not have any say in that. If they teach more or less, who teaches what when and how is all up to whatever agency feels like it wants.
In short there is no standard. There is no way to rank an instructor or shop for that matter. There is no quality control measures. A standard encompasses all of the above, what you end up with is a higher quality product. That is not to say you will not get a bad diver from time to time, but we will end up with allot less and a better trained diver.
You are right that this will bite some in the butt. However anytime you move the bar up, some will not be able to achieve that. That is one reason why not ever one who graduates from high school goes to college.

 

[Blackwood]

I think you've misunderstood me if you think my concern is people unable to achieve a higher bar.

I don't think your suggestion is necessarily better than status quo (though if done right it could be), and I think it has great potential to be worse than status quo, standing as legal justification for low standards (as opposed to the current cartel whose collective minimums can be readily impeached).

And further, it diminishes choice in the system. Whatever The Agency deems to be correct and appropriate, that's what you as a student must learn. So if DEMA successfully convinces the Standards Owner that in-line alternate air sources (air II and the like) and "splash-proof" snorkels and HUD masks are most appropriate for sport diving, everyone would be stuck using one during their education. Organizations such as GUE and UTD would be unable to teach the Hogarthian configuration to new divers. And so on and so forth.

 

[Thalassamania]

You can have one without the other. The RSTC is naught but an advertising gimmick and should not be offered any sort of recognition that gives it credibility that it does not deserve. As long as most of the agencies are there with profit being their primary motive and no real philosophical basis for what they do, why the do it, and how they differ, then this discussion has no real meaning; it's just about bucks.

 

[endurodog]

Rhenry you suggest a NGO but still has "an agency that has the effect of law". Either you do have the law or you don't. If you do then the goverment is the only way to enforce laws, and in these types of situations you end up with a regulatory board, and enforcement employees, and sanctions for non-complaince.

Or you have an independent board that can make suggestions but has no formal power. In the case or recreational scuba I will cut to the chase and the board would be formed by members of the major certifying agencies and the standards would be written so broad as to include all of their concerns and each agency would continue on the way they have. So the new super org would then sanction all the other orgs and each certifying group issues certifications in conjunction with the new super scuba org. But nothing prevents any of the orgs from going "Screw the new super Org they suck we are going back to the way it was".

The logistics and the realities of this are mind numbing. While the idea sounds great on the surface I'm just not seeing how it could work and I know of no other activity with this kind or structure that works.

What one standard would you like to see adopted by the new super org that would make it better than what we have now?