PADI v NAUI Master Scuba Diver Rating

[MXGratefulDiver]

Do you calculate the volume of air you need to lift that object before you do so? Do you know the weight and volume of the object beforehand, and do you then calculate how much air volume you will need to lift it before entering the water?

When I was volunteering at the local dive park we just pre-staged a raft of lift barrels/bags and scuba tanks, and used as needed.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Agree with both of you. These discussions are old and just reasons to pass time on SB. Someone looking at my log book and seeing that probably 90% of my dives are 30' or shallower wouldn't know I even had AOW.
But, I'll yet continue the talk. I googled NAUI in a number of places and found a couple of things their MSD covered that PADI doesn't-- Deep/simulated decompression and Air Consumption (practical application). One of the minimum 8 dives can be a skin dive. Nothing at all on the academics except that they are there and to an Instructor's level. Guess I'd have to get a NAUI manual to compare it to the PADI DM course.
As far as PADI's "old" DM course, I'm still waiting for someone to say "Hey, you're a DM--I'll pay you $800 to retrieve my 150 lb. outboard I stupidly dropped into 100 fsw, considering you know all the formulas, weight, displacement, salt water weighing 64 lbs./square foot, etc." Or, someone talking to me about which compartment will now control our second shallower dive instead of just using their computer or even dive tables. Or, to beat a dead horse, exactly how the complete circulatory system works from inhaling-lungs-aveoli-blood-tissues & back and all the related dive issues and embolisms. Seemed complicated enough for me and my shallow dives.

Meh ... my AOW students were lifting a 75 lb object and learning how to work together to bring it to the surface while controlling their buoyancy (including a safety stop). It's not rocket surgery.

Also, on the physiology ... I learned to never attempt teaching that to a medical doctor ... she kept correcting me, although I was correctly teaching it according to the agency curriculum.

It's all relative ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Taking specialty classes is one way to get further training. It is not the only way. If you want to get further training, you have many options. Here is how I have nearly two inches of cards but do not qualify for MSD:

• After getting Rescue certification, I got my DM certification, and then assistant instructor, and then instructor, and then MSDT.
• You may note that MSDT requires the ability to teach at least 5 specialties, but you do not have to have the specialties themselves to teach them. You can acquire the required knowledge and experience through other means. As an example, I was certified as a DPV diver through one agency, and I was certified as a DPV diver in an overhead environment by another. That makes me well-qualified to teach the PADI DPV specialty, even though I do not have the PADI DPV specialty myself. Over the years I became certified to teach a heck of a lot of specialties that way. Each one of those gives you a card.
• I designed several Distinctive Specialty courses and got them approved.
• I started tech training with TDI, getting certifications through AN/DP.
• My tech instructor crossed over to UTD, and I got a number of certifications through UTD.
• I got all my cave diving certifications through NSS-CDS. It takes 4 to complete the standard cave diving program.
• I crossed back to TDI and got certified through Advanced trimix.
• I became a TDI instructor, getting the certifications required for that.
• I became a TDI instructor for advanced gas blending.
• I took PSAI courses for cave DPV and cave sidemount.
• As a tech instructor, I crossed over to PADI, thus gaining certifications for their tech classes through trimix.
• I became a PADI trimix gas blender instructor.

My point in this is to show that there is a heck of a lot if instruction available to people these days that does not require classes with the name "specialty." I only have a couple of specialty certifications, but I have spent a long time getting instruction in other ways, and I gathered a lot of cards along the way. No, I don't qualify for the MSD certification, but I am sure not going to go out and take a specialty I don't need in order to gain a certification I don't need.

Likewise I have a drawer full of C-cards from a half-dozen different agencies ... oddly not a single one of them comes from PADI. That wasn't a conscious choice so much as just the circumstances of which courses I wanted to take at what time. I also only have a couple of specialty cards. Also oddly, I have taught and issued cards for classes (drysuit, for example) that I never got a card for. It's just an example of how circuitous and convoluted the certification progression can become when you take classes from different agencies.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Likewise I have a drawer full of C-cards from a half-dozen different agencies ..

Trying to recapture the history of this portion of the discussion in this thread, my point was that today's divers have many, many more options than were available to divers back when the Master Diver certifications were first created. I have certifications from 5 different agencies, and only one of them existed back then. (One of them had a forerunner with a different name, and its teaching focus was different.)

To repeat my point, in the late 1960s, a Master Diver certification came close to indicating you had pretty much exhausted the possibilities of formal training. today, it is really pretty basic--the rating can be perceived as an introduction to advanced diving.

 

[CrumhornDiver]

Taking specialty classes is one way to get further training. It is not the only way. If you want to get further training, you have many options. Here is how I have nearly two inches of cards but do not qualify for MSD:

• After getting Rescue certification, I got my DM certification, and then assistant instructor, and then instructor, and then MSDT.
• You may note that MSDT requires the ability to teach at least 5 specialties, but you do not have to have the specialties themselves to teach them. You can acquire the required knowledge and experience through other means. As an example, I was certified as a DPV diver through one agency, and I was certified as a DPV diver in an overhead environment by another. That makes me well-qualified to teach the PADI DPV specialty, even though I do not have the PADI DPV specialty myself. Over the years I became certified to teach a heck of a lot of specialties that way. Each one of those gives you a card.

@boulderjohn, I believe if you wanted to get MSD all you would have to do is apply to PADI for the c-cards to get up to five specialities; that in fact you do qualify as would a diver with five specialties. In either case, to become MSD you have to apply directly for it, as with most things with PADI. That was my understanding when I did my MSDT since I had to complete the specialty requirements I would teach and certify for as an MSDT. I don't see any rationale for applying for specialities or MSD so as an MSDT. I also got certified in like 8 specialties, but only applied to teach five as each additional speciality teaching cert had an additional fee.

Regardless, if in fact any of the theory in the PADI DM course is taught in the NAUI MSD program, that would indicate to me that it is a more robust program. I've always been a glutton for punishment so I would likely chose the more robust program if I was interested in pursuing a rating as Master Scuba Diver as a non-pro.

 

[TMHeimer]

Could someone NAUI MSD certified post some examples of the theory content (ie., a physics problem, physiology info.)? I have no way yet of comparing it to the theory in the PADI DM course.

 

[luscioman]

Getting back to the original question. I pulled out my Naui Master Scuba diver book. For chapter 3 "Diving Physics" here are some of the areas addressed. Heat Capacity, Henry's Law, RMV, SCR consumption, Amonton's Law, Avogadro's Law, Charle's Law, Boyle's Law, Partial Pressure and several other parts. As stated earlier the Naui course is much much more indepth than the Padi course. Here are some of the goals for Chapter 3. I will see if they have sample questions from the chapters.

3. Learn four scales used to measure temperature and convert between them.
4. Learn about density, state the density of air, seawater, density affect diving.
5. Understand Archimedes' principle and how to apply it to buoyancy problems.
6. Lean about pressure, distinguish gauge and absolute pressure and determine the pressure at any depth in the ocean or freshwater.
7. Learn about the major component gases of air and what their percentages are in normal air.
8. Learn about the seveal gas laws that pertain to diving and solve problems associated with them.
9. Learn about the effects of depth on divers air.
13. Understand how and why a divers loses heat under water.

 

[richmonddiver]

Getting back to the original question. I pulled out my Naui Master Scuba diver book. For chapter 3 "Diving Physics" here are some of the areas addressed. Heat Capacity, Henry's Law, RMV, SCR consumption, Amonton's Law, Avogadro's Law, Charle's Law, Boyle's Law, Partial Pressure and several other parts. As stated earlier the Naui course is much much more indepth than the Padi course. Here are some of the goals for Chapter 3. I will see if they have sample questions from the chapters.

3. Learn four scales used to measure temperature and convert between them.
4. Learn about density, state the density of air, seawater, density affect diving.
5. Understand Archimedes' principle and how to apply it to buoyancy problems.
6. Lean about pressure, distinguish gauge and absolute pressure and determine the pressure at any depth in the ocean or freshwater.
7. Learn about the major component gases of air and what their percentages are in normal air.
8. Learn about the seveal gas laws that pertain to diving and solve problems associated with them.
9. Learn about the effects of depth on divers air.
13. Understand how and why a divers loses heat under water.

That sounds like a syllabus for a chemical engineering course.

 

[TMHeimer]

Getting back to the original question. I pulled out my Naui Master Scuba diver book. For chapter 3 "Diving Physics" here are some of the areas addressed. Heat Capacity, Henry's Law, RMV, SCR consumption, Amonton's Law, Avogadro's Law, Charle's Law, Boyle's Law, Partial Pressure and several other parts. As stated earlier the Naui course is much much more indepth than the Padi course. Here are some of the goals for Chapter 3. I will see if they have sample questions from the chapters.

3. Learn four scales used to measure temperature and convert between them.
4. Learn about density, state the density of air, seawater, density affect diving.
5. Understand Archimedes' principle and how to apply it to buoyancy problems.
6. Lean about pressure, distinguish gauge and absolute pressure and determine the pressure at any depth in the ocean or freshwater.
7. Learn about the major component gases of air and what their percentages are in normal air.
8. Learn about the seveal gas laws that pertain to diving and solve problems associated with them.
9. Learn about the effects of depth on divers air.
13. Understand how and why a divers loses heat under water.

Thanks. On item 3, what are the other scales taught besides F & C? I don't recall in depth scale use in PADI's DM, though converting from Kelvin to F & C is covered with formulas somewhere. Item 4 is somewhat covered in the Encyclopedia of Rec. Diving but I don't recall anything on how density affects diving. On item 7 the trace gases are again in the encyclopedia, but not on the tests, etc.
The rest I recall were covered in PADI DM.

 

[richmonddiver]

Thanks. On item 3, what are the other scales taught besides F & C? I don't recall in depth scale use in PADI's DM. Item 4 is somewhat covered in the Encyclopedia of Rec. Diving but I don't recall anything on how density affects diving. On item 7 the trace gases are again in the encyclopedia, but not on the tests, etc.
The rest I recall were covered in PADI DM.

The othe scales are almost certainly Rankine and Kelvin.