PADI Tech?

[ucfdiver]

Please explain why a properly trained OW-certified diver needs a "mentor" in the ocean.

Honestly, when I was trained back in 1999 I took my course with an instructor who was either too cheap, too lazy, or just didn't really care enough to travel and give his students the benefit of multiple environment experience. We simply dove Blue Grotto and Ginnie Springs (which I don't even think meets minimum standards). As a new diver who already had tons of new procedures piling up, my first ocean dive was stressful, way more than it should be. Furthermore, I don't think that deco experience sitting on a log in a spring, or sitting on a rock in a cave is a very good method to prepare for deco in the open ocean with current and moderately high seas.

Maybe it's just me, but I certainly would adjust my diving to the specific environment.

 

[RJP]

Maybe it's just me, but I certainly would adjust my diving to the specific environment.

There's no doubt about that, however the idea that someone who has been certified in a small body of fresh water would not be adequately trained to dive in a larger body of salt water is sad. The OP needs to understand that such a suggestion conveys an inappropriately low level of expectation.

Yes, every diver needs to approach a new environment thoughtfully. The boat I crew on here in NJ gets plenty of rigorously trained and highly experienced tec/cave/rebreather divers from all over the world. However, when they are doing their first "NJ wreck dive" 30mi from shore in 4' seas, a ripping current, and 10ft viz... they do what every diver - even a new OW diver - should do on their first dive in a new environment...

• Seek info about the local environment
• Understand local conventions/factors/approaches
• Ensure proper gear configuration for conditions and dive plan
• Plan and execute your first dive(s) in a new environment in a conservative fashion

With that approach, an adequately trained diver - with an adequately trained and similarly experienced buddy - can easily progress in a step-wise fashion from the environment in which they were trained to the next, and then the next, and the next environment. Certainly, there are major jumps in environments/dives that require training on specific gear/techniques/procedures (wreck penetration, caves, deco, depths beyond rec limits, etc)

Would I suggest going from quarry training right to doing your next dive on the RP Resor? Of course not. However to rule out 3/4 of the planet's surface to people who were trained in a quarry unless they have "a mentor" with them is a bit much.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

If one's buoyancy control, skills, and overall comfort is good as it should be when one receives a cert card then there should not be any big issues. They also need to be encouraged to develop good judgment. This is sorely lacking in many OW courses today. Shops and instructors will take a new student, train them in a couple weeks, let them essentially teach themselves with on line or home study of the academics and 4-6 hours in the pool and tell them "Sure you can go do drift dives in Cozumel!". When the fact is they should not even be in OW at all yet since they cannot do skills neutral, hovering, and horizontal. They have not been task loaded to give them a chance to problem solve. They spend relatively little face time with the instructor. And the dive ops in many places are less than optimal when it comes to safety issues and recommended limits. The student is mistakenly led to believe that the DM or Guide will keep them safe. They are not told of the real risks diving poses because that might start them on the path to thinking for themselves and that is a danger to those who allow less than qualified divers to enter OW.

Yesterday I was diving in 5 ft of vis at best. If it had been a little warmer I would have had no problem taking a student I trained in for checkouts. They would have known where to be in relation to me and their buddy. They would know how to do skills and swim without tearing the bottom up.

And they would have had fun because as much time as I spend teaching them I also get the face time to answer questions as they come up, impress upon them how important it is to dive in all kinds of conditions, what to expect, what to look for, and most important that if they have a bad dive it is not the fault of the op, guide, DM etc. it is up to them to make the best out of it.

They would also be fully briefed on different condtions and environments. One two hour class sesssion is spent on that alone. And I add to every lecture tidbits on how the enviroment affects every aspect of their diving. They know that clear salt water can have different effects than murky fresh. They know that they need to adjust their weighting and perhaps to not do drift dives in the ocean until they have done some easy reef or sheltered bay dives. It is not hard to pass on this info. What it takes is time and effort on everyone's part.

 

[ucfdiver]

However, when they are doing their first "NJ wreck dive" 30mi from shore in 4' seas, a ripping current, and 10ft viz...

...with a bungeed wing, deep air, stuffed longhose, and various other convoluted gear configurations...

 

[kanonfodr]

I;d rather have a competent trained quarry diver as my buddy than a two weekend wonder who happened to do their dives in the ocean. I've seen quarry trained OW divers with better skills than a few ocean experienced instructors.

Bingo. I dunno if it's just here in my particular vacation-land, but I see plenty of things from "experienced" ocean divers that worry me, but the folks who dive regularly in inland lakes, or other places with less hospitable conditions, are generally much better divers.

As far as fresh OW divers, I blame it more on the training curricula that are more prominent than the divers themselves; the divers rarely know better. I was diving yesterday with a bunch of new OW divers and I saw all the wrong stuff go down but I try to set a better standard in my diving so I stayed cool, helped them out, and managed to not add horribly to the silt problem they created. Like I said, they don't know better. They've been trained only up to a certain standard and while some may say that the standard is not high enough, it's all they know right now.

Peace,
Greg

 

[RJP]

...with a bungeed wing, deep air, stuffed longhose, and various other convoluted gear configurations...

Don't forget crowbars, hammers, dynamite, etc...

 

[waterpirate]

Please explain why a properly trained OW-certified diver needs a "mentor" in the ocean.

A mentor would point out everything you stated in post #22. People who do not have knowledge of boats do not know what they do not know about boats and the ocean. And boat people do not necasarily understand that that green crap on the steps leading into the quarry are slippery as snot.
I fail to see how this simple statement turned so viscious? If you are diving some where new imho you need to get a mentor to show you ropes. That has nothing to do with the quality of your ow training or lack there of.
A simple comparison of this thought process would be if you learned to do your deco sitting on a log, you are not prepared to use a jon line.
Eric

 

[EzeeDiver]

Okay, I'll come along and complain. There is no requirement for a dual bladdered bungied wing. I took my class in a non bungied wing with a back plate and harness. In fact DSAT is very flexible in their equipment config. requirements. I won't even argue about the quality of their video, it is terrible. My class had a strong focus on bouyancy, trim, and a team approach to diving. A good instructor can work within the DSAT frame work to teach a high quality class and a bad one can teach a bad class, just like any other organization out there.

To add to the flexibility in equipment configurations comment...I just took my Tec class in January, and we all took it in sidemount, which is not even mentioned in the Tec Deep manual. Our instructor was, of course, a sidemount instructor, so this, as I understand things, is acceptable.

To agree with Martini, our focus was on frog kicks, back kicks, horizontal trim, holding stops, deploying lift bags while hovering, buddy focus, task loading, analyze-analyze-analyze (your gas supply), etc...There is more to the class than that, but those stuck out to me. I chose my instructor by recommendation of some folks in N FL, and based on some other things I've witnessed on my travels, I would agree that choosing the instructor is very important. Not only that they meet the true "spirit" of the requirements, but also match you in personality and goals. I made my final choice based on a couple of phone conversations with him and knew the class would be a good experience, and it was.

Happy diving!

 

[Colliam7]

Ive been looking around the Austin area and talking with a few instructors. I came across a guy that teaches the PADI Tech program. Has anyone taken these classes? Any opinions?

I have taken the DSAT Tec curriculum, through Trimix (and Gas Blender), and have CA'd for several courses since then. We are still teaching the three-course Tec program (Tec Level 1, Tec Deep, Tec Trimix) and I don't yet have in-water experience with the newer five-course sequence (Tec 40, Tec 45, Tec 50, Tec Trimix, Tec Trimix 65). I found the DSAT Tec course content and progression to be excellent. The materials (manuals) were (are) very good, notwithstanding a few pictures of divers kneeling on a pool bottom, which are not particularly reflective of what is in the course, even though they seem to be a lightening rod for a lot of comment .

The equipment list is reasonably flexible, and I have not seen 'equipment requirements like dual bungied wings with the second inflater disconnected and bungied behind the divers right shoulder', including a review of the all the Training Bulletins from 2001, 2002 and 2003. What the 1Q 2003 TB DOES include is the comment, 'The DSAT Tec Deep course requires the use of redundant buoyancy for both student divers and instructional staff. In Training Dive Six, one of the performance requirements is to perform a BCD failure drill in which divers must switch to their back up buoyancy system. While this may be accomplished through the use of single-bladder wings and a dry suit, divers in wet suits need to use dual-bladder wings to insure they have sufficient back up buoyancy. The goal is to have a back up that provides adequate buoyancy support at any point in the dive.' Certainly, I cannot say a requirement for a bungeed wing didn't previously exist, or was not in an article published in the Undersea Journal in 2002. But, it does not exist now. In fact, the Tec manual provides a good discussion of the issues with bungeed wings, vs unrestrained wings.

Indeed, as several have mentioned, PADI was a later entry into the Tec training environment, which is true for PADI in many things. They are seldom going to be the first agency to move into a particular area of diving instruction. But, when they made the decision to get into Tec training, they did so in a comptetent, methodical manner.

Having said this, I do think the instructor makes a lot of difference in the course, whether it is PADI / DSAT or another agency's offering. I was fortunate to train with the instructor I did. However, he described one part of his own (DSAT) Tec training in less than glowing terms, and it was a bit of a 'cluster', based on his decription of the 'competence' of his instructor. So, you would benefit from getting references -talk to others who have taken the Tec courses from the instructor in Austin, for example. Or, do an 'Intro to Tec' session with him/her before going too far.

 

[Blackwood]

they do what every diver - even a new OW diver - should do on their first dive in a new environment...

• Seek info about the local environment
• Understand local conventions/factors/approaches
• Ensure proper gear configuration for conditions and dive plan
• Plan and execute your first dive(s) in a new environment in a conservative fashion

Where would you suggest they look to satisfy bullets 1 through 3?

A mentor (as in the disputed post) seems reasonable to me.

Don't forget crowbars, hammers, dynamite, etc...

And a reel made from granny's old rolling pin and some clothes line.