I agree. It all depends. In my case, cost wasn't even an issue - cost me more to self-certify than the CD led course. Why then? I wanted to teach that particular specialty and did not want (and did not need) to wait to arrange for a "class".
Bill
PADI Specialty Instructor
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I agree. It all depends. In my case, cost wasn't even an issue - cost me more to self-certify than the CD led course. Why then? I wanted to teach that particular specialty and did not want (and did not need) to wait to arrange for a "class".
Bill
Mmerriman- I already acknowledged that 2 post previously.
Peter - I agree to some extent, but disagree as well.
For some courses, yes, self-certifying would be ok. However, for others, for example Wreck, do you not see a value in receiving additional tutoring?
Scenario: OWSI, 25 certs, 20 dives on wrecks. Able to self-certify. Does that mean that the particular instructor knows where to tie a line off, how to carry out line drills, has dealt with an OOA inside a wreck etc? Should that instructor be able to become a Wreck Instructor with no further training?
I may be a bit biased, but I have completed numerous courses with a cracking CD who I have learnt a lot from.
Peter - I agree to some extent, but disagree as well.
For some courses, yes, self-certifying would be ok. However, for others, for example Wreck, do you not see a value in receiving additional tutoring?
Scenario: OWSI, 25 certs, 20 dives on wrecks. Able to self-certify. Does that mean that the particular instructor knows where to tie a line off, how to carry out line drills, has dealt with an OOA inside a wreck etc? Should that instructor be able to become a Wreck Instructor with no further training?
I may be a bit biased, but I have completed numerous courses with a cracking CD who I have learnt a lot from.
Simon,
I take a different approach. Using your example of a wreck course, unless one is already well versed in wrecks and wreck diving, why would they think they should teach it? Learning how to run a line, etc. should not be learned at the time of taking a Specialty Instructor course - those should already be ingrained behaviours of one who thoroughly knows the subject before teaching it.
In my opinion (for what it is worth) the purpose of the Specialty Instructor courses are to learn how to present the class (knowledge, teaching aids, ideas on how to present and evaluate the skills etc.). The SI courses are not for the Instructor to learn the knowledge and skills for the subject.
If you are already comfortable with a thorough background in the material and are comfortable with presenting, teaching, and evaluating the material, why not self-certify?
I would hope that Instructors are not looking at the SI courses as a means of learning the particular subject. If so, where is the value to the student?
Bill
I take a different approach. Using your example of a wreck course, unless one is already well versed in wrecks and wreck diving, why would they think they should teach it? Learning how to run a line, etc. should not be learned at the time of taking a Specialty Instructor course - those should already be ingrained behaviours of one who thoroughly knows the subject before teaching it.
In my opinion (for what it is worth) the purpose of the Specialty Instructor courses are to learn how to present the class (knowledge, teaching aids, ideas on how to present and evaluate the skills etc.). The SI courses are not for the Instructor to learn the knowledge and skills for the subject.
If you are already comfortable with a thorough background in the material and are comfortable with presenting, teaching, and evaluating the material, why not self-certify?
I would hope that Instructors are not looking at the SI courses as a means of learning the particular subject. If so, where is the value to the student?
Bill
Bill,
This why I agree and disagree with the subject.
I am sure you have seen it yourself. You become an instructor and you then know it all. I am not saying that is the case for everyone that passes an IE, but there is certainly a percentage.
The criteria is that you can show you have x number of dives in a particular field, not that you are very competent in that field. There are enough who will want to be allowed to teach everything will little experience of the subject, and the self-certifying serves their purpose ideally.
I agree, the value to the student is low, but, it happens.
It is a judgement call on the applicant, sadly there are too many that wouldn't be critical enough of themselves not to apply.
You are right in what you believe the SI course is for (or else we are both wrong) in terms of presenting, tips, techniques etc.
This why I agree and disagree with the subject.
I am sure you have seen it yourself. You become an instructor and you then know it all. I am not saying that is the case for everyone that passes an IE, but there is certainly a percentage.
The criteria is that you can show you have x number of dives in a particular field, not that you are very competent in that field. There are enough who will want to be allowed to teach everything will little experience of the subject, and the self-certifying serves their purpose ideally.
I agree, the value to the student is low, but, it happens.
It is a judgement call on the applicant, sadly there are too many that wouldn't be critical enough of themselves not to apply.
You are right in what you believe the SI course is for (or else we are both wrong) in terms of presenting, tips, techniques etc.
I think we are all saying the same thing - it depends on the circumstances, as well as the integrity of the Instructor (as in all things).
Just because you can, does not necessarily mean you should.
In my small circle of Instructor friends and associates, I have yet to see one teach a subject that they were not capable of teaching....experience-wise.
Bill
Just because you can, does not necessarily mean you should.
In my small circle of Instructor friends and associates, I have yet to see one teach a subject that they were not capable of teaching....experience-wise.
Bill
Come to the middle east, there's more than a few.
Must be a first, agreement on SB
Must be a first, agreement on SB
Simon and Hawkwood -- I do agree with both of you -- an instructor shouldn't be teaching a "specialty" unless that instructor is actually comfortable with that type of diving.
Simon -- re self-certifying as a "Wreck Specialty Instructor." IF the OWSI has lots of wreck experience, including penetration training and experience, then you'd agree self-certifying is OK, correct? OTOH, do you not also agree that if the OWSI has only 120 total dives, with 10 dives on "simple" swim around/swim through wrecks, then even having taken a "Wreck Instructor Specialty Course" is unlikely to have given the person the skill level necessary to actually teach the course?
If you do agree, then isn't the answer, "it depends" on the experience, and experiences, of the instructor whether he should self-certify?
BTW, I did self-certify as a Wreck Specialty Instructor and I have never done any serious wreck penetration -- never run a line in a wreck. I also will refuse to do any Wreck Penetration in a Wreck Specialty Class and if that is what the student wants, I hand him off to another instructor who has a long course set up for that. Is that wrong do you think?
Simon -- re self-certifying as a "Wreck Specialty Instructor." IF the OWSI has lots of wreck experience, including penetration training and experience, then you'd agree self-certifying is OK, correct? OTOH, do you not also agree that if the OWSI has only 120 total dives, with 10 dives on "simple" swim around/swim through wrecks, then even having taken a "Wreck Instructor Specialty Course" is unlikely to have given the person the skill level necessary to actually teach the course?
If you do agree, then isn't the answer, "it depends" on the experience, and experiences, of the instructor whether he should self-certify?
BTW, I did self-certify as a Wreck Specialty Instructor and I have never done any serious wreck penetration -- never run a line in a wreck. I also will refuse to do any Wreck Penetration in a Wreck Specialty Class and if that is what the student wants, I hand him off to another instructor who has a long course set up for that. Is that wrong do you think?
DevonDiver
N/A
SI courses should 'teaching to teach'.... they shouldn't be about teaching the activity in the first instance. IMHO, the dive/experience prerequisites are ludicrously low for virtually all of the specialty instructor ratings/applications.
-: RANT BEGINS :-
Wreck diving is the worst... a course that can be taught to the same 'overhead' limits as Cavern Diver, requiring (for penetration) much of the same skill-set and equipment usage... but demands absolutely no verified penetration experience/higher qualification from the prospective instructor.
The Wreck Diver course should be delivered at two separate levels, requiring two distinct levels of instructor. A non-penetration 'intro'... and a 'recreational limits' penetration course (more akin to the Cavern Diver). The penetration course should only be delivered by instructors with higher-level qualifications in that activity and/or significant equatable experience.
-: RANT ENDS :-
-: RANT BEGINS :-
Wreck diving is the worst... a course that can be taught to the same 'overhead' limits as Cavern Diver, requiring (for penetration) much of the same skill-set and equipment usage... but demands absolutely no verified penetration experience/higher qualification from the prospective instructor.
The Wreck Diver course should be delivered at two separate levels, requiring two distinct levels of instructor. A non-penetration 'intro'... and a 'recreational limits' penetration course (more akin to the Cavern Diver). The penetration course should only be delivered by instructors with higher-level qualifications in that activity and/or significant equatable experience.
-: RANT ENDS :-
+1 for Andy's Wreck Spec rant. I self-certified: I'm Advanced Wreck certified and had done many, many full penetration dives before I felt that I could competently teach to the limits of the Wreck Specialty course. It's INSANE that it's possible for an instructor's first-ever wreck penetration to be with students in tow, but that's what the system allows. And no CD-led course is ever going to provide the skills and experience required to safely guide students through their first-ever wreck penetration.
I'm a firm believer that you should always be teaching at least one level below the level at which you dive, especially for the potentially more dangerous specialities. Want to teach Deep? Get some technical training and experience. Want to teach Wreck? Get full-penetration training and spend some time fingertipping through the silt.
I'm a firm believer that you should always be teaching at least one level below the level at which you dive, especially for the potentially more dangerous specialities. Want to teach Deep? Get some technical training and experience. Want to teach Wreck? Get full-penetration training and spend some time fingertipping through the silt.
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+1 for Grim and DD -- I too believe ALL instructors should be diving (not just trained) at at least one level above where they are teaching.
That is also why I'll teach the Wreck Specialty but only as an "outside the wreck" type of experience.
Note -- took a wreck workshop locally in preparation for cave training -- lots of line running and line work. The take away was that I had no business being inside of a wreck! I have no problems going 60+ minutes into a cave but I just won't go into a wreck!
That is also why I'll teach the Wreck Specialty but only as an "outside the wreck" type of experience.
Note -- took a wreck workshop locally in preparation for cave training -- lots of line running and line work. The take away was that I had no business being inside of a wreck! I have no problems going 60+ minutes into a cave but I just won't go into a wreck!
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