PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[dl348]

I've stated several times that I don't "have all the answers".

In fact, since I'm not PADI diver or PADI instructor, I don't have any vested interest in their curriculum, other than being saddened by a program based on generating the maximum amount of profit in the minimum amount of time, regardless of the comfort or skill level.

Anybody can identify the difference between "bad" and "better" without having world-class experience in that knowlege-domain.




That's easy, you should have asked earlier! It was the past four Januarys, typically around the 15th of the month, on 4 different Carribean cruises, diving with recent victims of the PADI short OW class.

• One girl was so terrified after her first dive that she spent the entire boat trip curled up in a ball, in the corner of the boat, hiding under her towel.
• A guy came back to the boat bleeding from coral scrapes all the way down the side of his leg because the instructor took him on narrow swimthough between coral heads.
• Another guy was bleeding from his eye socket (rocket ascent from 50').
• Another guy came back from the first dive terrified and said "he would never dive again".
• A girl came back to the boat completely OOA after her instructor told her to go hang on the line, went off to do something with the other students, then left her there.
• I've met at least 5 people locally who took the class, and each had bad experiences, mostly relating to not being ready for the OW dives, and being scared or injured, who all stated they would never dive again.

There were others, but these were the most notable.

It doesn't take 5000 dives to identify this as "bad".

BTW, I'm getting tired of defending the obvious, so if you want to complain, please feel free, but I probably won't respond.

Terry

In those 6 instances that you are referring to, how do you know for sure which agency they received their training from?
I'm just playing devil's advocate, but I've seen good AND bad divers from every training agency.
Just my .02 :14:

 

[ChrisSoutherly]

Some thoughts and responses ...

MikeFerrara:
We've seen the same thing over and over so many times that we think that's how it has to be. New divers often have lousy buoyancy control because no one makes any real attempt to teach them. It's not a required part of the class.

As to buoyancy training for open water students it is most certainly a required part of their class. Student divers must do a fin pivot using both power inflator and oral inflation, they must hover motionless in mid-water while timed, and must demonstrate buoyancy control when executing other skills. For example, during the simulated controlled emergency swimming ascent, student divers may not contact the bottom nor break the surface until covering the required 30 feet.

boulderjohn:
Now, she was certainly extraordinary, but it shows how individual people are. I was not involved with her actual OW instruction, but I am sure she breezed through it. If she had done it in a private session, the amount of time it would have taken her would probably seem scandalous to some people, but she still would have been a good diver.

This is a perfect example that time is not really the deciding factor in diver training, other than minimum bottom time for a dive. Open water training, and most all higher levels of training, are performance based not time based. Once a student diver has successfully demonstrated a skill, they have met the performance standard and are not "required" to repeat it in confined water. Yes, this is subjective but this is why all certifying agencies have Instructor level courses, to ensure all their instructors agree on what is required.

Web Monkey:
Can you honestly say that if you had twice the time for teaching OW that there is nothing else that you could teach to your students, and that there are no skills that more practice could improve?

If I had more time with students there would certainly be areas in which I could help them improve their skills. This goes back to the previous point though. Have they met the established performance standard? And as noted in a previous post, open water skills are basic skills. How many times does a student have to successfully remove, replace and clear their mask in the pool. Will it make it any easier for them when they aren't in the lovely 80F pool water, but the 65F quarry with about 10' of visibility? Probably not.

Also there is the issue of twice the time means more money. I've seen posts complaining about the cost of classes. As an instructor I'm perfectly willing to spend as much time with a student as they need to master the necessary skills. However I can't absorb the pool fees for extra pool time if they need it.

Getting your open water certification card is like getting your driver's license when you are 16. You know the rules, you have the basic skills, now you just have to go do it to get the experience. How many of us would like to ride with our 16 year old son/neice/cousin/whatever in fast moving city traffic or in severe weather? Not until they have more experience. Diving is no different. You don't get your open water certification in a fresh water quarry, then do your next dive on vacation in salt water to 120 feet on a wall.

Regardless of agency the RSTC and training standards for open water certifications have become more lax over the years. Keep in mind that modern open water courses are designed to be read, understood, and passed, unassisted, by 12 year olds.

Cheers.

 

[MikeFerrara]

PADI does not allow us to teach more than the specified curriculum. The reason being has to do with protecting the instructor. The PADI system has been upheld in court numerous times. If one stays within the PADI system their legal resources will get your back 100%. This means not doing less, more, or out of sequence.

PADI does not allow you to "add skills". Making students do a bail out is adding a skill. Having them pick up coins off the pool bottom and put them in their mask without touching the bottom is "fun and practice" which is encouraged in PADI standards. Taking time to learn to manage a free flow midwater rather than plastered to the bottom is just practicing two skills at once...hovering and free flow breathing. Not being able to do this has gotten lots of divers in trouble, BTW, and it's also one of the skills students have the hardest time with.

Practicing neutral swimming while getting trim correct so they're horizontal and making them go slow and stop often to prove they really are neutral is not adding a skill. It is conbining them in a functional way that resembles diving.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If I had twice the time in the pool, honestly I think most students would be bored. Once they master the skills in the pool, they want more too. We can only do fin pivots for so long before the students want a challenge.

See my last post. You can keep them from being boared easily enough.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some thoughts and responses ...

MikeFerrara:
We've seen the same thing over and over so many times that we think that's how it has to be. New divers often have lousy buoyancy control because no one makes any real attempt to teach them. It's not a required part of the class.

As to buoyancy training for open water students it is most certainly a required part of their class. Student divers must do a fin pivot using both power inflator and oral inflation, they must hover motionless in mid-water while timed, and must demonstrate buoyancy control when executing other skills. For example, during the simulated controlled emergency swimming ascent, student divers may not contact the bottom nor break the surface until covering the required 30 feet.

They never get off the bottom in a fin pivot and the hover is a whoole 30 seconds (required).

Students are NOT required to stay off the bottom in the simulated controlled emergency swimming ascent. I quote from the performance requirements "Simulate a controlled emergency swimming ascent by swimming horizontally underwater for at least 9 meters/30 feet whily continuously exhaling by emiting a conyinuous aaahhh sound"

Where does it say that they can't touch the bottom?

Further there are no requirements pertaining to the technique that must be demonstrated during the tour portions of the OW dives. Aside from "fin pivots" and ascents the only time the student is even required to leave the bottom is the hover in dive 4 which has no time limit. A student can "pass" the OW dives literally without ever diving.

It also explains why I see so many classes where they spend 20 minutes kneeling on a platform taking turns doing skills. Their then led on a 3 minute swim back to the exit point dragging the bottom the whole way and the dive is over and it's all compiant with standards.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some people can read thematerial and understand the material. Why you are hell bent on making those poeple sit in a class room or repeating skills over and over in a pool is beyond me.

Most people can read the book and understand it. One reason to make them spend some time in class is all the imporatant material that's missing from the text.
If I were to write a formal definition of diving it would certainly include the requirement for position control. Unfortunatel, information regarding the mechanics of static and dynamic trim is completely missing from the text as simple of a concept as it is.

the book is also completely lacking on the subject of gas management. Would you say that it's important for a diver to have something to breath? I know, the book says to watch your guage but it doesn't tell you what you should see or how to plan the dive so that you see it.

I forget, how many students have you trained? Until you train students you do not know what they are capable of.

Oh for the record, there is a non PADI local dive center the offers "Certified in 2 weekends." So it is not just PADI. Take your issue up with the RSTC.

Gosh...who is the RSTC? PADI and a few of the other agencies, right? It's like having the fox stand guard over the chicken coup. The RSTC is a joke.

 

[colby]

Colby,

I too was taught this, but during an AOW deep dive, the DI convinced me to follow his lead...in the end it was me who was hanging on the line on someone else’s air; my tanks empty. If you want the details, PM and I'll tell you how blindly following a DI could have gotten me killed. It's one thing to make the turn around decision at 40 feet of relatively calm water at the Rockport or Carleton Place training ground. Wait until you have to do it at 100 feet in the murky cold water of the St Lawrence. Do not be too quick to criticize someone else's dive options or skills. It can lead to arrogance, and that can get you killed.

I would never criticize or minimize someone's options or skills. I understand that cold water diving will be much different than my nice relaxed stroll down south. I was asking questions from the post on the Cruise dive program, the reason this post was started I believe.

I used to work as a part time outdoor educator. There is very little that applies to teaching in a student friendly environment (classroom, sports field, field trip that can be applied to the physically hostile environment that scuba take you into. You have all the time in the world to learn a skill in the classroom or out in the field. There is always enough air to breathe. However, underwater, air runs out. The stress can compound simply by knowing this little fact. A student who appears ready at 40 feet may very well find himself or herself sucking their tank dry as 60 or 100 feet. Kneeling on the bottom at 25 feet and clearing your mask may not stress the diver until they have to do it while descending and hanging onto the line at 100 feet. I do not have that many more dives than you, but I've had THE one that woke me up, and I now take nothing for granted, and have developed a respect for the sport and for those who have way more experience that I.

Maybe I simplified this too much, it really has to do with the skills/experience of the DI. If they are truely experienced, they should have some clue as to what may happen, or what may be happening to the students during the course of the dive. If they don't then they are either inattentive, inexperienced or both. I'm saying this, for as im my experience, I could recognize danger signals based on my experience in my given environment. The same should be applicable in the dive environment that the DI should have some experience with, either as a DI or DM.

Anyway, I too am in the Ottawa area, perhaps we will get the opportunity to dive together this spring/summer. I would look forward to it.

I would enjoy that, I am hoping to get some local experience in. Then I'll see if I'm a warm water wuss or not

 

[Storm]

I would enjoy that, I am hoping to get some local experience in. Then I'll see if I'm a warm water wuss or not

You'l do fine. A good 7mm wetsuit will get you though most of the season, but if you want to extend your season, you'll need a dry suit. I'm not dry suit qualified, besides, I'm a bit of a warm water wuss myself. I dont mind the 50 to 70 degree in a 7mm wet, but the thought of 35 - 40 degree water that some of the guys up here dive with dry suits, makes me shiver just thinking about it.

I take it you were trained down south? If so you might have some local enviromental issues to deal with. Mostly these are colder water, thremoclines, curent, and lower vis. But you should have little problems as long as you stay within your expereience training and comfort zone.

Anyway, send me a PM with your contact info, and I'll give you a shout the first chance we can get to hit the water.

Cheers!

 

[vkalia]

My suggestion - if you need a 7mm, bite the bullet and get a drysuit. It'll take a couple of dives to get sorted, but you'll enjoy the diving a lot more.

Vandit

 

[ScubyDoo]

If I were to write a formal definition of diving it would certainly include the requirement for position control. Unfortunatel, information regarding the mechanics of static and dynamic trim is completely missing from the text as simple of a concept as it is.

the book is also completely lacking on the subject of gas management. Would you say that it's important for a diver to have something to breath? I know, the book says to watch your guage but it doesn't tell you what you should see or how to plan the dive so that you see it.

Mike....It seems to me that you expect newbie divers to be required to be trained to the Nth level of tech diving. Is it really necessary for joe diver looking for beer bottles in 30 ft. of lakewater....or on a guided salt water reef dive at 50 feet...to be able to computate gas management as if he's deco diving? The mechanics of static and dynamic trim...??? I mean seriously?? We're not talking about a moon landing here. The PADI LDS I DM for has trained thousands and thousands of divers for over 25 years now...with no major diving emergencies. I think thats a pretty good record.