PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[dlndavid]

This is real low on air, not practice. There's a world of difference.


Don't fight it Vandit, you said you were extending yor dives "X" mins when the "Hoover" diver was either low or OOA........you may not buy Black and White, but that's your problem.

Last I checked drowned is a pretty black and white state.

That's some scary thinking there bud, and I'd suggest a re-think of it.

This is also why the onus is mostly on the Instructor, who generally around our parts don't really have a clue either. I guess it's not part of the curiculuum.

Hope you guys see better.

Regards

hey did you change your name from Instructor Steve?

 

[Web Monkey]

And obviously, no one would *ever* actually have to share air and swim in the real world, right?

In recretional diving (no overhead), you should be able to do a direct ascent to the surface at any time. Extra sight-seeing while sharing someone else's tank wasn't in any of the classes I took, and it's not in the SSI manual. PADI may be different, but if it is, that's really creepy.

But it seems that I shoul actually stick to to teaching at minimum standards. Right.
And then people wonder why beginners are not equipped to handle "real world" diving.

You should stick to teaching skills that will produce safe divers, not divers who think that running out of air and continuing on someone else's tank is OK.

OOA is a dive-ending event, not a signal to find someone else's air and keep diving. In fact, unless the OOA was due to some catastrophic equipment failure, you and the OOA diver should be having a serious discussion on the surface after the dive.

Terry

 

[vkalia]

The only thing that is even close to "air-sharing swims" is exiting a cave or wreck when one person is out of air.

I'll have to disagree. A lot of places, you need to swim back to the mooring line. In Thailand, where there is a lot of boat traffic and the boat captains dont give a toss about diver down flags, it is *much* safer to come back to the boat.

No where in PADI or any other certification agency does it ever state that continuing a dive while sharing air is acceptable. I have a feeling that if these agencies knew that you were teaching divers to "just keep swimming" they would come down on you very hard.

The motive doesnt matter - as long as the students get the practice and enjoy the dive, I am not too fussed. It'd be easier for me to just can the dive, come up and get back earlier, but I think it is better for the divers to do this.

Sharing air to continue diving is real and prevalent diving practice.

Practicing in a controlled environment to PREPARE THEM ON HOW TO DO IT PROPERLY is totally different than learning to do it in an effort to EXTEND your dive. It should be taught, yes. But only to safely ASCEND, not to extend your dive.

Why? If that answer is tied to your quote below, see my response to that.

Edit - "And they get to dive longer, work on their skills and hopefully, see some sharks/mantas/etc, which keeps them diving some more. From where I sit, that's a good thing." One other thing they might see, while so excited to see the animals, is death when they don't check their pressure guage. Not a good argument for the pro-air share side.

No offense, Rob, but you *HAVE* to be kidding me. You think continuing a dive while sharing air somehow inhibits people from looking at their air gauge or teaches them to NOT look at their air gauge??? How do you figure?

It still involves a jump of logic that boggles comprehension - and goes back to the "lowest common denominator" factor.

Anyway, we are going over the same turf over and over. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Vandit

 

[vkalia]

You should stick to teaching skills that will produce safe divers, not divers who think that running out of air and continuing on someone else's tank is OK.

Thanks. Any other tips you can give me?

OOA is a dive-ending event, not a signal to find someone else's air and keep diving. In fact, unless the OOA was due to some catastrophic equipment failure, you and the OOA diver should be having a serious discussion on the surface after the dive.

Once again - read my posts and try to comprehend what I am saying.

Saying the same thing over and over again doesnt really get us anywhere.

Vandit

 

[Web Monkey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Monkey
You should stick to teaching skills that will produce safe divers, not divers who think that running out of air and continuing on someone else's tank is OK.

Thanks. Any other tips you can give me?

Don't tell PADI what you're doing.

 

[Storm]

I'll have to disagree. A lot of places, you need to swim back to the mooring line. In Thailand, where there is a lot of boat traffic and the boat captains dont give a toss about diver down flags, it is *much* safer to come back to the boat.

Forgive my ingorance, but isn't that where proper gas planning comes into play.

I realize that I am by no means an expert, but after my OOA incident I sought out experienced rec and tech divers and asked them to show me how to perfrom proper gas planning, and to a diver, they all showed me planning methods that take into account returning to the same starting point with ample air to supply both yourself and your buddy in case of a catastrophic air failure.

I was also taught various planning mehtods based on the type of dive and end of dive air expectations. Even the most basic rule of thirds, should allow both divers to return to the line, if they've planned their dive properly. From what I've been taught, if the dive objective doesn't not allow for tis type of planning, it's a dive best not attempted.

What you are alluding to is no different than a diver taking a pony bottle along woith them, not for redundancy, but for dive time extension....something many on this site and other have condemned as an unsafe practice.

 

[vkalia]

Forgive my ingorance, but isn't that where proper gas planning comes into play.

In principle, I agree that there should be enough dive planning to ensure that divers can come back to the boat without needing to share air. However, in reality, most dive plans are quite flexible. Also, beginners can have quite variable air consumption from dive to dive.

So it is always nice to get comfy with the idea of swimming while sharing air. You never know when you might need it.

And yes, I'll reiterate my other point - it extends the dive time, and that aint a bad thing. As I said, it depends on the circumstances. Sometimes, you'll want to come up. And sometimes, you can stay down.

Let me illustrate using your example with a pony - yes, there are a lot of good reasons why using a pony to extend your dive times is bad. And most of those reasons are predicated upon an inability on the part of the diver to manage his gas. But in practice, I could use a pony to extend my bottom time and do it safely as well - and so, I am sure, could a lot of other experienced divers here. How? By ensuring I have enough gas left in my primary tank before switching to the pony, and then heading up to the surface. I know exactly how much air I'll need to come up safely from any given depth, even with catastrophic gas failure, and I can do air and deco calculations on the fly.

Once again - it becomes a matter of using your brains and not relying on simplistic rules to guide your entire diving career. At some point, you stop needing the rules but can decide what is safe and what isn't, from first principles.

Going back to those first principles: air sharing is not that difficult. It is something that should have been mastered in OW - and of the 500-odd students I have taught, I have *never* had a single student having a problem with air sharing, be in confined water or in open water. Ever. Depending on the conditions (depth/current/vis), and given enough air in the receiver's tank (ie, not an OOA situation), it is *PERFECTLY* possible for the diver to continue their dive with virtually zero incremental risk.

Rule of thirds for recreational diving? Shirley you jest. Let's try to teach divers dive planning & techniques that are actually relevant and applicable for the type of diving that they do.

Vandit

 

[Web Monkey]

Rule of thirds for recreational diving? Shirley you jest. Let's try to teach divers dive planning & techniques that are actually relevant and applicable for the type of diving that they do.

1/3 out, 1/3 back, 1/3 for if there's a problem.

Are you suggesting reserving more air than this, or less?

Terry

 

[vkalia]

Yes Terry, I think I may have heard of this "rule of thirds" in passing somewhere, but thanks for the refresher.

Vandit

 

[caseybird]

The recreational cert agencies I'm aware of teach an Air-Sharing Ascent, not an "Air-Sharing Continue Your Dive".

Terry

Whatever you call it, buddy teams all over the world do it. Somehow they figured out that they can share air early in the dive, to maintain a safe reserve in the big breathers tank. It is not dangerous. It is using common sense.
Of course, some people don't believe in common sense. Don't need it if you have rules.