PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[caseybird]

Iunder a system that worships plastic the more experienced diver would be denied access to a dive boat because he doesn't have a "Warm Water Shallow Profile - Saltwater" certification in his wallet.

c'mon.

 

[Zippsy]

1/2 day class, 1/2 day pool, 1/2 day pool.

Terry

....Plus home study and two days with four dives (since that's all part of the course). What is wrong with that? Other than a fifth dive and use of a slightly deeper pool, that's sounds like a normal open water course with just about any agency that I know except BSAC. Did you just need to get in some PADI bashing today?

 

[The Chairman]

So the given: RSTC minimums. Even those who DON'T belong, meet or exceed the minimums.

Now the variables:

1) the Student.
a) Intelligence
b) Motivation
c) Background
d) Natural skills

2) The Instructor...
a) Standards
b) Patience
c) Knowledge & Skills
d) Situational Awareness
e) Motivation

3) The Agency...
a) Additional skills required
b) Quality assurance
c) Teaching Materials

I have probably listed these three "Big Variables" in the order of importance. The biggest problem is that the Agencies are critiqued by the QUALITY of their instructors. It's not the agency's fault if the instructor BREAKS standards and is never reported by the students.

 

[Storm]

I
- What great task loading skills do you expect to get with a few more hours in the water? How much training will you need in order to handle being OOA at 30m and far away from your buddy? Will a few extra sessions help you there?

Your comment hits a bit close to home, but you don;t know me or the my situation, so I wont take it personally.

To be more precise, in my case, the OOA was at 65 feet coming up from a from 95 feet on the AOW Deep Dive, with my buddy close by. A dive I made the mistake of actually doing and not thumbing as I was assured by my DI that we would modify the dive plan when I told him my tank was about 300 LBs light before we even left the boat. What he didn't take into account was, that as a very new diver, I did not have a great air consumption, and in HIS desire to get the minimum 20 minute dive in (after the kneel in the mud and write your name backwards, I signaled that I was down to 1200 and a bit concerned about air supply) he decided to take a tour of the nearby wreck in mid-Octiber cold water and strong current.

The biggest problem is that the Agencies are critiqued by the QUALITY of their instructors. It's not the agency's fault if the instructor BREAKS standards and is never reported by the students.

Actually I did report the instructor, and heard nothing from it.

What you are saying has some ring of truth to it, but I would put forward, that if the agencies were to look at their training plans and tighten up some of the requirements, and pre-requisites, they could alter their taining plans in such a manner as to further reduce the potential for the instructor to break standards. Pre-requsites involving logged dives, are hard to just ignore, especially if the hosting LDS has to sign off. (although I have heard of some fools forging log entries...but there's little to be done with the dishonest out there.)

Anyway it's obviously a point of difference between what my expectations were and what was delivered, so as you all say there's not point in rehashing it. I will still continue to develop, with the help of more experienced and knowledgable divers than I, a plan for my wwife and I to get us to where we want to be in our diving expertise.

Thanks for your informed feedback.

Cheers!

 

[vkalia]

Your comment hits a bit close to home, but you don;t know me or the my situation, so I wont take it personally.

It wasnt directed at you personally at all - more of a general "you".

My point was that incrementally more training at the early stages really makes no substantial difference in building the muscle memory and noncognitive reflexes needed to react properly in the event of a real difference.

At the early stage, you are governed by your natural comfort level/skill/ability to handle stress. With time (lots of time), experience takes over.

No one is being forced to dive deeper than their abilities. I fail to see why training should be denied or withheld because the diver hasnt met some arbitrary "proficiency" criteria - to me, the proficiency critieria of OW is more than adequate for AOW training.

As adults, people should be responsible for their own safety. I fail to see why training agencies need to up their standards to protect people from themselves.

To be more precise, in my case, the OOA was at 65 feet coming up from a from 95 feet on the AOW Deep Dive, with my buddy close by. A dive I made the mistake of actually doing and not thumbing as I was assured by my DI that we would modify the dive plan when I told him my tank was about 300 LBs light before we even left the boat. What he didn't take into account was, that as a very new diver, I did not have a great air consumption, and in HIS desire to get the minimum 20 minute dive in (after the kneel in the mud and write your name backwards, I signaled that I was down to 1200 and a bit concerned about air supply) he decided to take a tour of the nearby wreck in mid-Octiber cold water and strong current.

So the fault is to be apportioned between your instructor and you. No offense, but you get no slack for being a beginner in this case either. Your dive, your air, your safety - this is in the OW manual. Your instructor was to blame as well - he should either have brought you up asap, or planned to dive longer while sharing air.

That being said, mistakes happen - even instructors make miscalculations. It's happened to me as well on AOW dives when someone flat out powers through their air faster than I'd expect humanly possible.

Without knowing what the circumstances were, I cannot comment, but completing a dive while sharing air isnt exactly a catastrophe. I often do that when I have 1 diver who's an air hog and his buddy isnt - with my longhose, we get an additional 10-15 min of diving in, the divers get to practice OOA swims and get additional bottom time and everyone's happy.

What you are saying has some ring of truth to it, but I would put forward, that if the agencies were to look at their training plans and tighten up some of the requirements, and pre-requisites, they could alter their taining plans in such a manner as to further reduce the potential for the instructor to break standards. Pre-requsites involving logged dives, are hard to just ignore, especially if the hosting LDS has to sign off. (although I have heard of some fools forging log entries...but there's little to be done with the dishonest out there.)

Two things:

1/ As you said, no denying the dishonest. Someone who is going to break the standards is going to break them anyway.

2/ You imply that a few incremental dives results in proficiency. Not true. It isnt a *few* - it is a lot. And even that is no guarantee. As Net Doc posted, there are a lot of variables, and there is no simplistic formula that is ideal for everyone.

I will still continue to develop, with the help of more experienced and knowledgable divers than I, a plan for my wwife and I to get us to where we want to be in our diving expertise.

You have a great attitude to learning - and my suggestion would be that you simply dive as often as you can. Once you get 50-60 dives in, you'll realize that becoming a good diver isnt so much a matter of "more instruction" but a matter of "more experience."

Also, dont under-estimate the learning benefits from things like running low on air, getting caught in a current, etc. I dont think it is a bad idea to push your limits occasionally while diving (although you have to exercise good judgement while doing so: common sense works very well) - if you constantly stay in your comfort zone, you arent going to get better.

I read somewhere (here, maybe?) that good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes frm bad judgement.

Scuba training is intended to provide minimal training - enough to make people aware of how to dive safely, what the risks are and instil the fundamental dive skills. It is up to each person to build on that - and I like it that way (a philosophy of life, not just diving).

Vandit

 

[Furypickles]

If this is the case then the instructor is obligated to not pass this student exam or no exam you must be able to function safely underwater. Most OW divers also do not dive on their own unless they are with their instructor/s until they are competent to dive on their own (with buddy) my first fourty dives were with instructors,MD's<DM'S etcetera, I found it comforting to dive in the group with many divers that were more experienced then I was at the time. Now I am leading the dives, because I have had the practice and training to feel comfortable to do so. We just came back from a trip in Central America it was beautiful to caribean mind you Costa Rica is the best for large schools. Anyway we had at least 8 new OW doing their check out dives, some of them excelled right of the bat with their bouyancy etc and others needed a little more time to learn. Either way it is the discretion of the instructor to decide who is ready to pass and who may need a little more assistance to get their C cards. In the long run Padi, TDI etc with suspend or take their license to train away if they have too many accidents on their hands. (even if it is not their fault, some people should just stay out of the water)

 

[Web Monkey]

What's wrong?

How about 7 or 8 days of classes and pool sessions instead of 1/2 day of class and 2 days of pool?

While you all may be natural-born divers, and happy with the abbreviated format, the people I see take the short PADI classes (other agencies may be the same, but these happen to be PADI) every year on the ships, then go diving, are apparently less capable and need more time.

I can tell this by the amount of blood left in the bottom of the dive-boat from the returning divers, and by talking to people who tell me that they blew out their eardrum or damaged something else important, or were just terrified and will never dive again.

You can say what you will, but every time I go on a cruise and dive with the students just out of class, someone, and usually several someones gets hurt.

Is 7 or 8 classes better than 1 or 2? Out of all the people who take the 8 week class at the shop I use, nobody has ever come back from the checkout dives bleeding or injured. I'd consider this an indication that the short class is too short.

Terry

....Plus home study and two days with four dives (since that's all part of the course). What is wrong with that? Other than a fifth dive and use of a slightly deeper pool, that's sounds like a normal open water course with just about any agency that I know except BSAC. Did you just need to get in some PADI bashing today?

 

[Scuba_Steve]

So the fault is to be apportioned between your instructor and you. No offense, but you get no slack for being a beginner in this case either. Your dive, your air, your safety - this is in the OW manual. Your instructor was to blame as well - he should either have brought you up asap, or planned to dive longer while sharing air.

That being said, mistakes happen - even instructors make miscalculations. It's happened to me as well on AOW dives when someone flat out powers through their air faster than I'd expect humanly possible.

Without knowing what the circumstances were, I cannot comment, but completing a dive while sharing air isnt exactly a catastrophe. I often do that when I have 1 diver who's an air hog and his buddy isnt - with my longhose, we get an additional 10-15 min of diving in, the divers get to practice OOA swims and get additional bottom time and everyone's happy.

I think you have to realize that these brand new divers, as much as their two day program gave lip service to being responsible for yourself, are so new, they haven't fully come to the understanding of this, so like it or not, a majority of divers are going to trust the Instructor, right or wrong. Usually wrong BTW.

My buddy Storm was no different. The problem is most of these Instructors wouldn't know a safe dive if they were involved in one. Most haven't so it's not a surprise.

Also, if you conduct dives as the above described events, you're crazy, and is exactly why students don't get it either.

If a student is hanging of your long hose for an OOA or low on air, the dive is over. W.T.F.

Fix the real problem dudes.

Regards

 

[Zippsy]

Is 7 or 8 classes better than 1 or 2? Out of all the people who take the 8 week class at the shop I use, nobody has ever come back from the checkout dives bleeding or injured. I'd consider this an indication that the short class is too short.

I think a previous poster said it best; you need to find another cruise ship. I guess 7 or 8 classes are what they need on your boat but in the PADI OW classes we teach, even the ones where the students choose the home study and the classroom sessions is limited to an hour or two, we don't have any injuries either. ... to the divers OR, for the most part, the reef. (the occasional whip coral grab excepted)

 

[nyprrthd]

All comes down to dumb people who don't understand the inherent risks in a sport like diving, and/or are just interested in getting that piece of plastic that allows them to go out and kill themselves. How many people get their certification card, don't dive for a few years, and then decide to do a dive while on a cruise? Too many is probably the answer.

How many people go skiing without having taken a lesson? Lots of Kamikazee skiiers out there getting hurt. However, experienced skiiers also get hurt or killed on a regular basis. The same can be said for experienced divers who become careless.

How many weekend warriors play baseball or basketball, and end up with injuries?

No rules, regulations, or standards can compensate for the lack of common sense. As it has been said, "Common sense is not all that common."