PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[Goose75]

...I realize that folks are probably saying that because I'm new I don’t know enough to comment on training requirements, so just so you all know where I'm coming from...

You guys and gals who have many dives under your belt are very knowledgeable and base you evaluation of the various training method based on what you know....I'm basing mine on what I don’t know but SHOULD know...

Storm,
From the content of your posts, I think you have a great perspective of where you are and where you want to be. I think your best way to get there is to find a highly skilled local instructor who is willing to mentor you along. Otherwise I expect you will continue to be disappointed. I was in Rescue before I found my mentor. Now I don't have to be disapointed anymore.

 

[Storm]

A flock of them, 'eh. :11doh: Wow... glad I don't dive where you do.

On a more serious note... I don't think your level of certification dictates how good you are (I know, been said a thousand times), and I think it is up to you, the diver, to figure out your limits... and capabilities. Diving is much like climbing... the gear you take is your life safety gear, and you rely on it for your safety. You also rely on your climbing buddy (belayer) to catch you when you fall... which happens much more often than running out of air or having any other issue underwater. I definately want to know about the abilities of the person I am climbing with before I start a climb... not their certification, but their abilities. Diving is the same for me. I never was instructed how to climb... I learned the way to belay, in 10 minutes... then we went climbing.

I do not fall back on blaming my certifying organization, nor even my instructor if I do something that is just blatently wrong... its my fault. Ignorance is no excuse for this sort of thing, we need to take the responsibility for our actions.

Sometimes people on the internet get into too much of a pissing match about number of dives, type of diving, or organizations. Diving is fun, not a competition... and I feel bad for the people who are bored enough with their diving to concetrate on these sorts of topics rather than on diving.

I agree that your cert level does not necessary reflect your abilities...but it should...especially if your cert level will get you on a boat that is going to dive outside of your limits.

What you are equating this to would be similar to a rookie car driver getting a license, through nothing more than paying a fee, to drive a heavy transport. It is all fine to say the driver should not drive that rig, but then why let them buy their way to the license t begin with; a recipe for disaster.

If many charter boats require an AOW to board, one can assume that they expect their divers to BE advanced divers (i.e. experienced divers). That is why I think that having a set number of pre-requisite logged dives before allowing student to progress to AOW, and them making the AOW an actual learning endeavor, (not guided tours) would only benefit the diving students and the diving industry.


AlexMDiver,

Different people do learn at different rates, but text book learning and real life experienced are two very different things. I know the theory and aced every AOW review. In fact I held the highest score for both classes...big deal. It amounts to nothing more than developed memorization skills...not developed diving skills.

BTW the OW to AOW is not a progressive training flow. Progressive training builds on skills learned by adding new knowledge and taks loading existing skills. A progressive training example would be to take the basic safety skills that you learned in OW kneeling on the bottom, then re-visit these skills while horizontally hovering three feet off the bottom, or practice an assisted assent neither with diver wearing a mask. These build knowledge, experience and confidence. That is progressive training.

The AOW is not really an educational course...more of a introduction to five "specialty dives" via guided tours. (I'd like to know how peak buoyancy and trim can be called "specialty” skills...sort of basic requirement IMO, but we can come back to that one later.)

All I am saying is that if the AOW cert is the "key to the boat” then it should be an actual skill course, not an intro to different diving that will be taught in other courses.

Also, Gringo, I am not bored with my diving...just dry-docked till the ice is out...
Although I am doing weekly skills practice sessions in the pool.

 

[tedtim]

What you are equating this to would be similar to a rookie car driver getting a license, through nothing more than paying a fee, to drive a heavy transport. It is all fine to say the driver should not drive that rig, but then why let them buy their way to the license t begin with; a recipe for disaster.

An interesting comment, especially considering the driver licencing system where we both live (Ontario). My kids took the driver education training. They were permitted to drive on the 400 series highways only with an instructor (similar to interstate highways in the US). They had one short trip as an introduction. They were also restricted to not driving at night, even with a qualified driver next to them. They took the driving test in the city. Presto they are now permitted to drive on the 400 series highways and at night. I pay the insurance on the car. So just how impressed am I with this? Immediately after taking a test, they can drive in one of the more risky situations without supervision. No wonder the accident rates for young drivers are so high - the training is inadequate. This is not exclusive to SCUBA certifiction.

If many charter boats require an AOW to board, one can assume that they expect their divers to BE advanced divers (i.e. experienced divers). That is why I think that having a set number of pre-requisite logged dives before allowing student to progress to AOW, and them making the AOW an actual learning endeavor, (not guided tours) would only benefit the diving students and the diving industry.

Storm, I think that you are stretching here and suggest that you should not assume anything. The dives in the St. Lawrence can be challenging as you have learned. I don't believe that most of the charter operators assume anything about the quality of the divers they have on board. The card serves as a way to deflect the risk. "If they have AOW then they must be qualified for any dive within recrational limits" is simply transferring the risk to a certifying agency and probably satisfying the insurance companies.. I have never been asked to demonstrate:
a. that I have dove in similar conditions
b. that I have dove recently
c. that I have dove that particular kind of dive before (drift, wreck, in a drysuit, you name it)

Assuming that because someone has an AOW card they have been exposed to all conditions is a mistake. The charter operators I have dove with are all certified divers themselves. They know what the AOW card really means.

I do agree with you regarding a minimum number of dives between OW and AOW, but the question is not just how many dives, but what you have done. It is too simple to go back to the same location as where you did your OW and just do the same dive a number of times to build up numbers.

The AOW is not really an educational course...more of a introduction to five "specialty dives" via guided tours. (I'd like to know how peak buoyancy and trim can be called "specialty” skills...sort of basic requirement IMO, but we can come back to that one later.)

All I am saying is that if the AOW cert is the "key to the boat” then it should be an actual skill course, not an intro to different diving that will be taught in other courses.

Unfortunately, some places take it as the "key to the boat." This is attributable to the operators and not the certifying agency. I still challenge them to show me where having an AOW card demonstrates that a diver has been exposed to similar dive conditions before. It does not, and it is not advertised that it does. I was challenged only once to as to evidence of my experience. My log book was key. You can also get all the way to DM without having a broad range of experience.

 

[Storm]

An interesting comment, especially considering the driver licencing system where we both live (Ontario). My kids took the driver education training. They were permitted to drive on the 400 series highways only with an instructor (similar to interstate highways in the US). They had one short trip as an introduction. They were also restricted to not driving at night, even with a qualified driver next to them. They took the driving test in the city. Presto they are now permitted to drive on the 400 series highways and at night. I pay the insurance on the car. So just how impressed am I with this? Immediately after taking a test, they can drive in one of the more risky situations without supervision. No wonder the accident rates for young drivers are so high - the training is inadequate. This is not exclusive to SCUBA certifiction. .

The graduated licensing system requires students to wait at least eight months, during which the restrictions are in place, during which they are supposed to be getting driving experience before they can challenge the next level and run solo on 400 class highways; even then they have a twelve month restricted period before the are totally let loose. In simpler terms, before there are called drivers they have had to demonstrate their capacity to drive effective and safetly. At least that was the intention of the new system...BTW MTO has added new restrictions as of Sept 05.

... I don't believe that most of the charter operators assume anything about the quality of the divers they have on board. The card serves as a way to deflect the risk. "If they have AOW then they must be qualified for any dive within recrational limits" is simply transferring the risk to a certifying agency and probably satisfying the insurance companies.

I would not presume to argue with you on this as you’ve been around much longer than I in the diving scene. However, this is exactly what I was trying to convey. Yes, I agree that the card itself does not necessarily mean that the diver has the experience necessary to perform a given dive. That is why I personally think that the AOW course could be improved upon by taking it from merely a course where different dives are exposed to a more well rounded skills + exposure format that builds upon the skills and confidences learned in the OW.

A format I would have suggested would be for 5 pool sessions (advanced skills based) one for each dive scenario, then the open water dives as a check out dives. The same format as the OW, just with skills (example buoyancy control while performing buddy breathing) developed while task loading, and new skills introduction. (for example, floating an SMB)

Assuming that because someone has an AOW card they have been exposed to all conditions is a mistake. The charter operators I have dove with are all certified divers themselves. They know what the AOW card really means.

I do agree with you regarding a minimum number of dives between OW and AOW, but the question is not just how many dives, but what you have done. It is too simple to go back to the same location as where you did your OW and just do the same dive a number of times to build up numbers.

Again you are much more experienced that I so I have to agree. As to the minimum number of dives and the quality of these dives, you are quite correct. However, just for the sake of discussion, if the AOW were to have more prerequisites associated to it, it might become a more effective designation. For example, make the nav, peak performance buoyancy, deep pre-requisites to the AOW, then make the AOW check out dives for certification only. Better yet, package the three into the AOW. There are many permutations that could be used, but the result would be better divers, and a designation that dive operators could actually trust. You would be in a much better way to comment on the different skills etc as you've seen much more of it than I.

I have great respect for my OW DIs I have great respect for the DMs who attended both my courses, (one of whom I owe a great debt). I also have great respect for the owner of the LDS that ran the courses.

It’s the curriculum, and one particular DI, that I have my doubts about, but that’s something I’ll have to get over.

 

[Mystic Gringo]

Storm... my post was not intended for you entirely... I agree with you for the most part, and understand that your certification level should reflect your abilities. I agree that there should be a minimum number of dives before advanced. When I quoted you, I was only trying to point out a funny misspelling, and my reply was not directed at you.

It was brought up before, and maybe it is a good idea... an OW-I and and OW-II before AOW. Ofcourse, which ever agency did it would then be seen as trying to grab more green from customers. I personally believe that Rescue training should be a part of an earlier curriculum... but you need experience before you can get the most out of that. This is not supposed to be a college degree after all.

 

[Storm]

When I quoted you, I was only trying to point out a funny misspelling, and my reply was not directed at you.
QUOTE]

No problems mate.

 

[PAdiver93]

Got certified with NAUI in 2 hours - prepped at home at did my check out dives in Antarctica one day and in Cayman Brac the next... over the internet!

 

[Atticus]

Got certified with NAUI in 2 hours - prepped at home at did my check out dives in Antarctica one day and in Cayman Brac the next... over the internet!

Ok, I know you're joking, but just to be clear to the newer people out there that aren't familiar with the NAUI program, this is not reality.

 

[RadRob]

The OW-I and OW-II idea is good. I like that much more than allowing someone go directly from OW to AOW in the next week or so.

Also, the log book IS key, as tedtim said. I only carry my OW cert to most places. I don't want to lose the others, and I am pretty messy, so losing it wouldn't be hard to imagine. All the boats and dives I have been on, I simply show them my card and logbook. With well over 800 dives, they never give me any hassle. Point being, they are much more receptive to a logbook SHOWING your abilities, than they are with an AOW card with a few dives.

To be a truly advanced diver, I feel you need to fine tune the skills you were taught in OW and demonstrate you have perfected them. You should have a minimum number of dives (not sure what that amount should be, but it should be more than it currently is), and you should also have to show that the conditions your dives were in are diverse. Like someone else said, you can dive the same spot 500 times and that won't prepare you for other conditions. Then you should be taught additional curriculum that they cover in AOW now. I also agree that the Rescue class should be taught sooner and should be a requirement for AOW.

 

[vkalia]

A format I would have suggested would be for 5 pool sessions (advanced skills based) one for each dive scenario, then the open water dives as a check out dives. The same format as the OW, just with skills (example buoyancy control while performing buddy breathing) developed while task loading, and new skills introduction. (for example, floating an SMB)

And i'll argue that marginally greater training means nothing in terms of helping prepare a student when the ***** REALLY hits the fan.

I used to teach martial arts, and while people started getting the mechanics of a particular skill after a day or two, it takes a LOT more training before they are able to perform the same skill in a semi-live situation (ie, full contact/no pads). An additional day or teaching would make no difference either; what the student needs is repeated and long-term practice. After a certain amount of time, it clicks and then it stays with them forever.

Handling underwater problems calmly is related to 2 things: level of comfort underwater and individual ability to handle stress. The latter is innate, and not much you can do about it. Re. th former, additional pool time makes a small difference, but neither gets you anywhere close to being *ready* to deal with it - no more than practising a lock for 2 days, instead of 1, makes you ready to apply it in a real fight.

I'm a water baby - been swimming since Iwas 4, used to be a competitive swimmer, could skin dive down to 100', have swum a 50m pool with my hands and feet tied behind my back, can still swim 5k without too much trouble. One time, I was seriously in trouble inside a wreck that I had dived 30-odd times already, and sure that I was going to die. Despite having 800-odd dives at the time, it took a *lot* of willpower to stop myself from going into blind panic, and to work on finding a solution instead. Moral of the story - if 800 dives and absolutely no nervousness in the water *barely* proved enough, what do you think a few additional pool sessions will accomplish?

So let's come back to earth a little bit here, and not assume that a few extra sessions will make us all capable of diving the Dorea. It doesnt work like that.

It is amazing that you hear people forever moaning about diver training standards, and then you realize that an average diver only dives 5 times a year or something like that. Yeah, additional training is going to make a huge difference in these cases.

For the vast majority of the diving population, a *properly-taught* OW course and regular diving is all that is needed to build and improve dive skills.

Vandit