PADI Divemaster course

[MikeFerrara]

I've kind of avoided this thread cuz I've been wearing myself out lately. In support of what roakey is trying to explain, I have a really hard time finding divemasters and instructor to work with us. Until recently I owned a dive shop and I had the chance to dive with many who came in wanting to help with classes.

The reason we had such a hard time is that we teach and demnstrate everything off the bottom. None of our staff touches the bottom, ever (unless their standing up with head out of the water for briefings). There just aren't many divemasters who can demonstrate mask removal and replacement midwater and horizontal in three feet of water.

We had a guy who wanted to help with classes last year. After seeing him in the water I told him that we needed to work on a few things before he could work with students. He decided to skip it and attend an IDC instead. He's an instructor now. He's an instructor who doesn't dive well enough for me to let my students see but he is an instructor.

I wonder if he has any DM students.

 

[jamiei]

Again, I never once said I was a good diver or that I knew the skills and techniques you mentioned... no where in the quote you listed did I say I knew anything. Certain ways people phrase things also let you know exactly what kind of people they are. I'm better than you cause I say so type of folks...

We've also not seen a single thing in any of your posts that point to you being as knowledgeable and more advanced a diver that you seem to feel you are. "I'm right cause I say so" doesn't convince me. Divemaster or no divemaster (which I'm not as I have mentioned), being a good diver doesn't hinge on whether or not you're DIR, a tech, or cave diver... safety is key...

 

[TJisthe1]

I am like others that have posted on here so far, I am ALMOST through with my DM, I am taking it so that i can continue on to AI, and then Instructor. After reading roakes responses, I have decided that I am DEFINATELY going to check into a DIR F course, I just cant stand the thought of not being the best diver I possibly can be!!;-0

 

[seanrollins]

roakey once bubbled...

Exactly the response I expected: "Oh, I know all that stuff."

Remember: "You don't know what you don't know."

Roaky,

All of the skills you listed are taught in the Dive Master course. In fact, if you hadn't mastered those skills by the time you hit DM when I went through, you were held back and asked to join the next upcoming class. There is far more to teaching a recreational scuba diving course than simply following curriculum. The curriculum is the bare minimums; from there you add personal experiences and tricks of the trade. Anyways, all we're talking about here is the difference between a good and a bad professionals. So, lets conclude by saying that anybody out there who wishes to become a professional, and who -still- hasn't mastered the basic diving skills, please consider taking the DIRF course!

I do agree with you that there are recreational instructors out there who don't fulfill the curriculum, and who are only interested in making money. Heck, I've even had an instructor like that before. But, if you want to tell the entire truth, you might as well go on to say that in places like the Philippines, you can buy a PADI Open Water cert. for $50 and not even step into the water.

I don't know what I don't know? Of course I don't, but you know what, neither do you! That's just life right? However, I believe you're losing all of our respect because you can't seem to support your accusation against PADI Professionals. This is so typical with DIR guys too - they have an egotistical competitive attitude towards other divers. I sure hope you're not a DIR Instructor, cause you haven't even begun to sell me on the idea yet.... and I have every intention of taking some DIR courses!

Take care,

 

[MikeFerrara]

seanrollins,

Where in the PADI DM course are the skills that roaky listed mentioned or tought?

Come to think of it, where are they required in any PADI class?

 

[roakey]

seanrollins once bubbled...
and I have every intention of taking some DIR courses!

That's all I can hope for. Come back and tell us what you thought of them aftewards.

Roak

 

[jbichsel]

in this thread, I think that people on both sides are not getting the point.

To all those on the DIRF side:

Taking the DM course DID make me a better diver. Since it took me over one year, I had a butt-load of pool time, and numerous open water dives that enabled me to work on becoming more comfortable and aware in the water. It allowed me to go from just controlling buoyancy, to learning how to trim and control my trim with breathing. I was fortunate to have an instructor that taught and teaches MORE than the minimum required. He does not even offer a 3 month DM program.

No one from the DM side is saying that the DM certification is the "end all, be all" of diving mastery. But to make a blanket statement that to know how to really "dive" you have to take a DIRF course, I think, is a bit over the top. I will agree that for the most part, most instructors do NOT teach enough of what DIR does. I have seen numerous divers, DM's, AI's and instructors that looked as if they were riding a stationary bicycle as they stirred up silt, damaged coral, etc.

I'm sure there are some DIRF instructors out there that are worse than others. Just as in any profession.

To those on the DM side:

DM is not always what it should or could be. I have, in 15 years of diving, seen a lot of DM's that shouldn't be allowed in a swimming pool. AI's and instructors also. Too many operations are in too much of a hurry to make a buck, then get on to the next victim. I agree that a properly run DM program can and does produce a better diver. I am a product of one, I believe. I became much more aware of my attitude (trim type) in the water, aware of my surroundings and affect I have on the environment I'm in. I know now what it's like to be able to hover upside down, head 6" from the bottom at 95', taking pictures under the wing of a plane.

Do I consider myself an 'expert' diver? No. Accomplished, yes.

To all:

Relax, take a deap breath. It sounds to me that there is room to give on both sides. I will take a DIRF class in the future, and will ask Roakey for help and recommendations. Having met Roakey and spoken with him, I like what I hear. He makes good points. I may not agree 100% with everything he says, but there is a lot of validity to it.

Look back at Jacques Cousteau. I'm sure that tech and cave divers of today would beat the crap out of him and his team for how they dived and treated their surroundings. I watched a program on Discovery the other night about some shipwrecks off of Venzuela. Some of the worst techniques of diving I have ever seen from guys that have been diving 30+ years.

We can all learn from each other. The day we close our minds is the day we should sell all our gear.

 

[roakey]

jamiei once bubbled...
We've also not seen a single thing in any of your posts that point to you being as knowledgeable and more advanced a diver that you seem to feel you are. "I'm right cause I say so" doesn't convince me.

You're absolutely correct, just as I can't "diagnose" someone's diving over the net, you can't evaluate mine. Which is why you have to rely on subtle way folks say things to make better guesses as to what their diving is like. And there's always the quite likely chance you're completely wrong [generic you're, as in you, me, everyone].

And I don't consider myself that advanced a diver. I've seen the high bar from GUE instructors, and that gives me my target to shoot for. This is why I focused on your "mediocrity is Ok" comment -- if you look at seanrollin's reply s/he states "...from there you add...tricks of the trade."

Well, if there's no one that can show you the tricks of the trade, how do you learn the "tricks of the trade"?

jamiei once bubbled...
Divemaster or no divemaster (which I'm not as I have mentioned), being a good diver doesn't hinge on whether or not you're DIR, a tech, or cave diver... safety is key...

Subtle distinction here. To be a good or even an excellent diver in terms of skills does not require being a DIR diver, a cave diver or anything. Recreational gear is adequate, typical recreational instruction is not, but some folks muddle through and figure things out and become good divers.

That said, the DIRF is way to shorten the learning curve; do you want to take a couple years to figure out what you might need to do to improve, or do you want to take a one weekend class and know what you need to do to improve? It's ongoing education (much of it SHOULD be basic education, but isn't) just like any other class, but you get a lot more bang per buck.

But you also mention safety, and here's the subtle part: When it comes to safety, nothing beats the DIR approach (the WHOLE thing, not just equipment). I'm going to shout before someone comes back with the accusation they always come back with: THIS IS NOT TO SAY RECREATIONAL GEAR AND TECHNIQUES ARE GOING TO KILL YOU, THE STATISTICS PROVE THAT NOT TO BE TRUE. There, now lets avoid that speed bump in the discussion.

However, safety is about margins, and margins, as the name implies, are small. DIR (equipment AND techniques) boosts many margins in small ways to add up to a much safer way to dive.

Roak

Ps. If I could take just one thing from the DIRF class and implant it into recreational instructors it would be an understanding of static trim. Of course, because a big part of classes these days is selling gear, this would put the instructors and gear manufacturers immediately at odds, because not only does most recreational gear not work well for maintaining static trim, most of it actively works AGAINST being able to maintain static trim...

 

[seanrollins]

Roakey,

Thanks for your comments in this discussion. I'm going to conclude by saying that I believe any course you take will better your skills.

Take care,