PADI Divemaster course

[Col.Maniac]

Thanks for input, I still got my Rescue diver course to do wich starts on tuesday already done the homework bit, depending on how the rest of it goes Il make up my mind then.

P.S AquaDog good luck with ur exams

Tony

 

[MechDiver]

roakey once bubbled...

DIRF teaches you how to actually dive better.

Do NOT expect a DM class to address your actual diving skills.

Roak

They both have skills involved, but they are targeted at widely separate issues. They are not the same in-water skills that the DirF class teaches as they are not meant to be. That does not mean they don't have worth or will not help make you a better diver.

MD

 

[roakey]

MechDiver once bubbled...
They both have skills involved...

For example?

Roak

 

[Cave Diver]

Col.Maniac once bubbled...
Why do I want to do the couse? probably the main reason is im going to learn much more than what I do already and to make my diving much safer, I am a safe diver anyway but its just going to re-inforce it. Also I like helping out any way, and to interact with & helping out student divers will defently give me the buzz

IMO opinion, the DM course is not the best course of action for you. Instead, you might consider taking at least up through a rescue course, then branching off into other areas to seek the knowledge you want.

DIRF is a good place to start to develop solid diving skills.

Advanced courses (nitrox, advanced nitrox, etc.) are good for developing knowledge of dive theory and physiology.

Tech diving is where you end up when you start putting solid skills and good knowledge to continous use.

The reason I went through a DM course was because I enjoy working with students, giving them some of the guidance that I got and it affords me several other perks and opportunities that I wouldnt normally have.

You might look at your priorities and see if a DM course is really going to offer what you are looking for. Based on your reply, I'm thinking it probably wont.

 

[pwfletcher]

I disagree.

Personally, my diving skills were improved tremendously in my DM course for two reasons:

1) the significant task loading in the DM course truly enhanced my ability to deal with my own "emergency situations" under the water. In addition, after that course, diving seemed effortless when not having to watch out for all of the Instructor's students.

2). the PADI DM level is basically providing you with the foundation to be an instructor and requires you to be able to perform certain diving skills at the level an Instructor would and demonstrate those skills for others. This also significantly refined my diving skills. For me, it was the same with skiing, when I became an Instructor, my skiing skills improved dramatically as well.

Finally, it is a marketable skill. Although it will not make you rich, being a PADI DM is definitely a a certification that can provide you with the opportunity to make money doing something that you love should you ever chose to do so. Even if you don't switch careers, you can do it part time and get free boat trips, air, etc.

I am not trying to point you in any direction, but that is how the PADI DM course benefitted me.

Personally, I would like to know how many of you that responded have taken the PADI DM course, and if so, what benefit you received from it.

 

[Cave Diver]

pwfletcher once bubbled...
Personally, I would like to know how many of you that responded have taken the PADI DM course, and if so, what benefit you received from it.

I have. I spent pretty close to a year doing the course. I spent a lot of time interning with students, supervising and just watching in the background during pool and open water sessions.

I did a lot of skill demonstrations and helped several students overcome obstacles they were having.

IMO, the DM course doesnt develop your skills. It requires you already have the skills to begin with so that you can adequately demonstrate it to others.

Part of the "grading" is whether or not you can demonstrate them slowly and deliberately with exaggerated ease.

In my personal opinion (and others will disagree) I think that at this level you should already have your skills down.

I will agree that anytime you get in the water and practice a skill it gets better. If it is signifcantly improving your skills, then perhaps the skills werent completely solid to begin with.

Part of the problem I see with the dive industry is that people rush to become DM's and Instructors before they are really comfortable with their own skills.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. :box:

 

[roakey]

pwfletcher once bubbled...
Personally, I would like to know how many of you that responded have taken the PADI DM course, and if so, what benefit you received from it.

I'm a PADI Dive master (or at least was, I haven't re-upped in years).

I can state without hesitation that my training was, by PADI standards, exceptional, complete and through. An when I completed it I thought I I got a fantastic education, only to find out 15 or so years later when I took my Cave I class that I had no idea what *diving* was really like. With the knowledge gained in my Cave I class I found out that I didn't learn how to dive in *any* of the classes I took, not OW, not AOW, not Rescue, not any of the specialities and not Dive master.

Problem is, with no frame of reference everyone thinks they have a great instructor. They all think they learned a lot. I did. Oh, I learned how to breathe underwater safely, but none of the classes did a very good job at teaching me to *dive*.

Why not?

Easy. Because my instructors didn't know how to dive, and their instructors didn't know how to dive, and those instructor's instructors didn't know how to dive.

I met a dive master candidate the other day who has 40 dives under his belt. He took OW earlier this year. Looking at all his specialty badges on his jacket, he probably has one diving vacation in his log, the rest are probably training dives. He'll probably be an instructor inside a year. And his students will think he's a diving god because they have no frame of reference.

No, I'm not just bashing PADI, the ENTIRE recreational SCUBA industry has this problem to varying degrees.

It used to be that you had to take a cave class to learn to dive; even a bad cave instructor so outstrips a typical recreational instructor that s/he would be worthwhile taking a class from. Nowadays there's another option: The DIRF class. The "F" is for "Fundamentals" for a reason. GUE was failing way too many technical track students because they didn't know how to dive, so they started an "up front" class to teach students to actually dive, rather than just breathing under water.

So now you can learn just the diving aspect without having to take a cave class.

So is the recreational industry devoid of instructors that know how to teach diving? Heck no, there are some out there, problem is they're such a minority that they're hard to pick out. You need someone with the correct frame of reference to spot them. I'd love to be able to say "Go take a class from Clint down at Shark Bit Divers if you want to learn to dive." but I can't. The only thing I can do is say "GUE (http://www.gue.com/) is such a small organization that at this point in time (notice the hedge) ANY instructor of theirs will be exceptional and will teach you how to actually dive.

Problem is, most of the instructors and DMs that read this will sit there and think "Thank God I know how to dive and he's not talking about ME!" You're wrong, I am talking about you. At this point in time probably less than 5% of the recreational instructors actually know how to dive.

Kinda like when asked, 90% of automobile drivers think they're above average drivers. Also a friend of my father who teaches at MIT always asks the incoming freshmen: "How many of you expect to be in the top 10% of your class?" -- and all the hands go up. 90% of them are wrong.

Without the correct framework to make an informed evaluation, you have no idea if you or your instructors know how to dive. And at this point in time the ONLY way you're guaranteed to get that framework is to take a cave class from any agency (95% chance you'll be taught how to really dive) or the DIRF from GUE (100% chance you'll learn to dive). I wish it was different, but at this point it isn't -- technical divers are the only ones keeping the "Lost Art of Diving" alive in the vast desert of recreational diving "education".

In closing, I'm actually embarrassed now by what I taught students that went through classes I assisted with, they thought I was a great diver. I thought I was a good diver. If 15 years ago I read what I wrote above, I'd be sitting here smugly knowing that thank goodness it wasn't about ME, I'm a good diver. But I wasn't. Knowing where the bar is by taking the DIRF class I know that even now I'm not a great diver, I have a lot to learn and practice.

pwfletcher once bubbled...
2). the PADI DM level is basically providing you with the foundation to be an instructor and requires you to be able to perform certain diving skills at the level an Instructor would and demonstrate those skills for others.

Would you say, for example, that you can perform a demonstration quality fin pivot?

Roak

 

[lanun]

roakey once bubbled...

I can state without hesitation that my training was, by PADI standards, exceptional, complete and through. An when I completed it I thought I I got a fantastic education, only to find out 15 or so years later when I took my Cave I class that I had no idea what *diving* was really like. With the knowledge gained in my Cave I class I found out that I didn't learn how to dive in *any* of the classes I took, not OW, not AOW, not Rescue, not any of the specialities and not Dive master.

Problem is, with no frame of reference everyone thinks they have a great instructor. They all think they learned a lot. I did. Oh, I learned how to breathe underwater safely, but none of the classes did a very good job at teaching me to *dive*.

Profound words, Roak.

Haven't done DIRF though my Adv EANx instructor also teaches Cave. In the confined water portion (which we did on the beach) i thought 'wow this is tougher than i thought'. Since reading your post, i think what he did was teach me how to dive ut: .

 

[jamiei]

A lot of what you say is true Roak, but something comes to mind... Who is to say what makes a good diver a good diver? Do you have to be able to perform in a cave environment to be a good diver or does that just make them a good cave diver? Do you have to be a good cave diver to be a good diver? If so, couldn't I say that you have to be a good ice diver or good hard-hat diver to be a good diver? In my eyes, a diver than has all the skills to perform all the tasks he/she will encounter in thier diving environment is in fact a good diver. Just because a jaguar can't cut it in the mud bog doesn't mean its not a good car. I think that you're saying in order to be a good diver, you have to be the best of the best which I don't totally agree with. A good baseball player doesn't even have to hit .225 if he's a great defensive player. Greatness is in the eyes of the beholder. You have experienced more advanced training than the general recreational diver will ever need. The value of this training goes without saying but the necessity of it to be a good diver is questionable.

To clarify things, what skills exactly do you feel the average (let's just say) rescue diver needs but does not have. This diver won't be diving in any overhead environments because he has neither the desire or training to do so. He also won't be leading any dive groups or teaching any skills. What skills are necessary to make him a good diver that he can't possiblly already have?
By the way, I can do a demonstration quality fin pivot and I'm not a DM. Is that supposed to be a difficult skill? I can do a horizontal ascent/descent... heard someone talking about it and tried it... not that difficult. I can hold a depth in midwater perfectly with no reference. I'm not a great diver by any means and I'm not trying to suggest that I am, but there are a lot of things (such as those mentioned above) that I'm comfortable with and don't see as exceptional skills. Most of them are not taught in recreational courses because they aren't needed in the recreational environment generally.
I'm not disputing what you say, but just would like to know more about what exactly all these rec divers are lacking. I know you may say I should take the DIRF course, which I will one day, but thats not the answer I'm looking for and would also be sidesteping the question. I think by giving concrete examples, you'll open up a lot more eyes (myself included) than by simply giving a testimony of your experience.

 

[Col.Maniac]

Thanks to all who have responded, I have made up my mind and im going to go for it , I had a chat with my instructor on the way to a dive ( in truck).
He said there are ways they can help me pass my tests (mental ones):doctor: as for me "actions speak louder than words" as the expression goes , as I said prev` the "physical and actual hands on part of the job" should not be a problem.

The last thing im going to say is life is too short if i dont do it il regret it, if i do do it and pass or fail i havent lost any thing, I can still learn, atleast ive given it my best attempt.