Capt Jim Wyatt
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loosebits:
I have never heard of this requirement.
PADI Cavern?
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I have never heard of this requirement.
StSomewhere
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Is that a serious question? PADI has a snorkel requirement for their OW class, since you couldn't complete the snorkel to reg exchange without one. Its not "required" for anything else.loosebits:
loosebits:
I teach the PADI Cavern course (and soon NACD) and the course outline specifically states NO snorkel to be used.
Dennis Weeks
I have e-mailed PADI and the training department to request they review the standards of their cavern program. I am siting that they may wish to bring them more in line with the other agencies that teach this course (NACD, NSS-CDS, TDI etc).
It is important to note that some of the PADI standards are fine but they do require some adjustments on the other standards. I have mentioned to them of my co-writing the new NACD student manual and my posiiton on the NACD BOD's. This I did in an attempt to show them my standing and interests within the cave diving community. Here is what I wrote hopefully we can start the ball rolling:
I am a PADI Cavern Instructor and I am a Full Cave Instructor with both NACD and TDI. In fact I am one of the co-authors of the NACD's new Cavern and Cave Diver Workbook, the NACD's student manual. I also sit on the Board of Directors for the NACD.
In the past recent weeks I have had students approach me looking to move forward in their Cavern to cave training. These students were certified as PADI Cavern Divers. Now I do have the option as a NACD and TDI Full Cave instructor to accept or not accept their cavern certification. I can chose to review their skills and knowledge before I accept them for any further advanced training. Nothing different here then what I would do if I were conducting a PADI course not knowing the student. Many instructors do not and will not accept PADI Cavern certifications for students looking to continue their cave training.
In any event I have had to completely review the cavern level skills in order for the student to be within standards before I could consider them to advance forward within the Standards and Procedures acceptable to NACD or TDI and similarly the standards of the NSS-CDS of which I am not an instructor. With this in mind I would like to point out the differences that cause many PADI Cavern certification to be deemed unacceptable to the other agency's instructors for those individuals seeking to advance toward a Full Cave certification. In no way am I suggesting that PADI consider development of a Full Cave program but rather that PADI standards reflect a common acceptance of the other agencies. I have attached a copy of the NACD's S&P for your review. TDI's S&P are not that much different.
PADI Cavern Course
Instructor Manual Reference: Specialty Diver Course Section 4-1
Prerequisites: PADI's prerequisites are considered fine and really do not need any change. Some agencies permit a OW diver to enroll in a cavern class and the minimum age can be as low as 15 with parental/guardian consent.
Instructors Supervision: Here we do have a difference but I do not think a change needs to be made as PADI limits further the number of students permitted in the cavern zone with a instructor. PADI permits up to 8 students in the open water training
portion of the cavern class and only a maximum of two students per instructor during any dive conducted in the overhead. Other agencies permit only six in the open water and up to four in the overhead (for cavern training only, full cave training limit is set to 3:1 )
Considerations for Cavern training Dives
PADI's definition of the cavern zone and the cave zone of the overhead environment is easily understood and adequate. However a statement of diving in a cavern zone should not be made through a restriction. Example:
All cavern dives are to be made in a cavern passage that permits the dive team members to penetrate and exit in a side by side swimming manner. No dive will be made through a passage that causes the dive team to be forced into a single file swimming formation.
The statement:
Second Paragraph: The Cavern Diver Course is to include four training dives which are to be conducted over at least two days.
The above statement may be better if stated with a understanding of a minimum number of dives. Example:
The Cavern Diver Course is to include a minimum of four training dives which are to be conducted over at least two days.
The last sentence page 4-1 Penetration-training dives are limited to within the light zone and within 40 metres/130 feet from the surface. Vertical and Horizontal distance included.
A recommendation would be to place a maximum depth limit of the cavern not to exceed 30 metres/100 feet and have a stipulation of not less than 2000 psi/ 50 cu ft of air and a limiting air supply for penetration and exploration of 1/3 for a single tank usage and 1/6 for double tank use causing the diver to return to the surface. Example:
Penetration-training dives are limited to within the light zone and within 40 metres/130 feet from the surface. Vertical and Horizontal distance included. Maximum depth not to exceed 30 metres/100 feet. Divers are to have at least 2000 psi (133 Bar)/ 50 Cu ft at the start of any cavern dive and are limited to 1/3 if using a single cylinder or 1/6 if using double cylinders of their total volume starting air supply. PADI Cavern Instructors are to be equipped in full cave diving configuration during the conduct of all training dives.
Last sentence first paragraph; this is the most contentious of all the PADI Cavern Training standards. It is this skill that causes the PADI Cavern certification not to be accepted by most instructors and some agencies as a whole.
No out-of-air drills are to be practiced in the overhead environment.
We are teaching the students how to dive and survive in a environment that has a higher risk then most dive sites. IF the student is not able to perform this skill whilst in the overhead environment then they are not prepared to be diving within a cavern zone! This skill must first be practiced outside the cavern zone. It can be furthered practiced under a controlled scenario by the instructor within the cavern zone thus providing the student the confidence and comfort that may be required should this situation occur for real. PADI has stringent conditions on the performance of skills such as the Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent, a similar control may be placed on the conduct of this drill. Example:
No skills will be performed until after the dive has been turned and the team is set to exit the cavern zone.
The instructor must ensure the student divers are close to the exiting guideline and facing oriented to the cavern exit. The instructor signals for the lead diver of the student divers to request a air share (Air share will be instructed subject to the students equipment configuration). The out-of -air diver does not remove their regulator from their mouth until they have secured the donated alternate regulator from the donating diver. Once secured the out-of air diver will remove their regulator and begin to breath on the alternate by first clearing the regulator. They will stow their out-of-air regulator and face towards the exit in the lead team member position. The donating diver will make certain they are breathing an air source before completely releasing their alternate air source to the out-of-air diver. The donating diver will then face towards the exit in the second team member position. Both divers will confirm their status to the instructor by signaling "OK". The instructor will signal back and motion the team to begin their exiting swim whilst sharing air.
This out-of -air drill is very critical to any diver who wishes to learn to dive within a overhead environment. If it is never practiced within the overhead under controlled scenarios both with full visibility and with no visibility then the student is not prepared to a acceptable standard. If that student following certification were to dive with a diver having received training from another agency both divers may be at risk.
Course Overview
Paragraph 3 page 4-2.
3. proper body position and buoyancy control, air-consumption management and emergency procedures.
It may be best that the instructors who they themselves are suppose to be full cave diver certified also instruct the students in what is called gas cylinder matching as part of air-consumption management. Example
3. proper body position and buoyancy control, air-consumption and cylinder size matching management and emergency procedures.
I submit these recommendations in hope that the PADI Cavern Course will be made more acceptable to those instructors and agencies currently teaching the skills and techniques required to safely dive within a cavern zone. Also in a means to help those PADI divers who hold a PADI Cavern certification and desire to proceed on with other levels of cave training.
I make myself available to discuss the PADI Cavern Diver program further. I feel that these sort of changes are needed as I cannot teach to the standards of PADI and permit a student to advance in addition cave level courses without repeating cavern training under the standards and procedures of another agency.
Sincerely for your review
Rick Murcar
Genesis Diving Institute of Florida
It is important to note that some of the PADI standards are fine but they do require some adjustments on the other standards. I have mentioned to them of my co-writing the new NACD student manual and my posiiton on the NACD BOD's. This I did in an attempt to show them my standing and interests within the cave diving community. Here is what I wrote hopefully we can start the ball rolling:
I am a PADI Cavern Instructor and I am a Full Cave Instructor with both NACD and TDI. In fact I am one of the co-authors of the NACD's new Cavern and Cave Diver Workbook, the NACD's student manual. I also sit on the Board of Directors for the NACD.
In the past recent weeks I have had students approach me looking to move forward in their Cavern to cave training. These students were certified as PADI Cavern Divers. Now I do have the option as a NACD and TDI Full Cave instructor to accept or not accept their cavern certification. I can chose to review their skills and knowledge before I accept them for any further advanced training. Nothing different here then what I would do if I were conducting a PADI course not knowing the student. Many instructors do not and will not accept PADI Cavern certifications for students looking to continue their cave training.
In any event I have had to completely review the cavern level skills in order for the student to be within standards before I could consider them to advance forward within the Standards and Procedures acceptable to NACD or TDI and similarly the standards of the NSS-CDS of which I am not an instructor. With this in mind I would like to point out the differences that cause many PADI Cavern certification to be deemed unacceptable to the other agency's instructors for those individuals seeking to advance toward a Full Cave certification. In no way am I suggesting that PADI consider development of a Full Cave program but rather that PADI standards reflect a common acceptance of the other agencies. I have attached a copy of the NACD's S&P for your review. TDI's S&P are not that much different.
PADI Cavern Course
Instructor Manual Reference: Specialty Diver Course Section 4-1
Prerequisites: PADI's prerequisites are considered fine and really do not need any change. Some agencies permit a OW diver to enroll in a cavern class and the minimum age can be as low as 15 with parental/guardian consent.
Instructors Supervision: Here we do have a difference but I do not think a change needs to be made as PADI limits further the number of students permitted in the cavern zone with a instructor. PADI permits up to 8 students in the open water training
portion of the cavern class and only a maximum of two students per instructor during any dive conducted in the overhead. Other agencies permit only six in the open water and up to four in the overhead (for cavern training only, full cave training limit is set to 3:1 )
Considerations for Cavern training Dives
PADI's definition of the cavern zone and the cave zone of the overhead environment is easily understood and adequate. However a statement of diving in a cavern zone should not be made through a restriction. Example:
All cavern dives are to be made in a cavern passage that permits the dive team members to penetrate and exit in a side by side swimming manner. No dive will be made through a passage that causes the dive team to be forced into a single file swimming formation.
The statement:
Second Paragraph: The Cavern Diver Course is to include four training dives which are to be conducted over at least two days.
The above statement may be better if stated with a understanding of a minimum number of dives. Example:
The Cavern Diver Course is to include a minimum of four training dives which are to be conducted over at least two days.
The last sentence page 4-1 Penetration-training dives are limited to within the light zone and within 40 metres/130 feet from the surface. Vertical and Horizontal distance included.
A recommendation would be to place a maximum depth limit of the cavern not to exceed 30 metres/100 feet and have a stipulation of not less than 2000 psi/ 50 cu ft of air and a limiting air supply for penetration and exploration of 1/3 for a single tank usage and 1/6 for double tank use causing the diver to return to the surface. Example:
Penetration-training dives are limited to within the light zone and within 40 metres/130 feet from the surface. Vertical and Horizontal distance included. Maximum depth not to exceed 30 metres/100 feet. Divers are to have at least 2000 psi (133 Bar)/ 50 Cu ft at the start of any cavern dive and are limited to 1/3 if using a single cylinder or 1/6 if using double cylinders of their total volume starting air supply. PADI Cavern Instructors are to be equipped in full cave diving configuration during the conduct of all training dives.
Last sentence first paragraph; this is the most contentious of all the PADI Cavern Training standards. It is this skill that causes the PADI Cavern certification not to be accepted by most instructors and some agencies as a whole.
No out-of-air drills are to be practiced in the overhead environment.
We are teaching the students how to dive and survive in a environment that has a higher risk then most dive sites. IF the student is not able to perform this skill whilst in the overhead environment then they are not prepared to be diving within a cavern zone! This skill must first be practiced outside the cavern zone. It can be furthered practiced under a controlled scenario by the instructor within the cavern zone thus providing the student the confidence and comfort that may be required should this situation occur for real. PADI has stringent conditions on the performance of skills such as the Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent, a similar control may be placed on the conduct of this drill. Example:
No skills will be performed until after the dive has been turned and the team is set to exit the cavern zone.
The instructor must ensure the student divers are close to the exiting guideline and facing oriented to the cavern exit. The instructor signals for the lead diver of the student divers to request a air share (Air share will be instructed subject to the students equipment configuration). The out-of -air diver does not remove their regulator from their mouth until they have secured the donated alternate regulator from the donating diver. Once secured the out-of air diver will remove their regulator and begin to breath on the alternate by first clearing the regulator. They will stow their out-of-air regulator and face towards the exit in the lead team member position. The donating diver will make certain they are breathing an air source before completely releasing their alternate air source to the out-of-air diver. The donating diver will then face towards the exit in the second team member position. Both divers will confirm their status to the instructor by signaling "OK". The instructor will signal back and motion the team to begin their exiting swim whilst sharing air.
This out-of -air drill is very critical to any diver who wishes to learn to dive within a overhead environment. If it is never practiced within the overhead under controlled scenarios both with full visibility and with no visibility then the student is not prepared to a acceptable standard. If that student following certification were to dive with a diver having received training from another agency both divers may be at risk.
Course Overview
Paragraph 3 page 4-2.
3. proper body position and buoyancy control, air-consumption management and emergency procedures.
It may be best that the instructors who they themselves are suppose to be full cave diver certified also instruct the students in what is called gas cylinder matching as part of air-consumption management. Example
3. proper body position and buoyancy control, air-consumption and cylinder size matching management and emergency procedures.
I submit these recommendations in hope that the PADI Cavern Course will be made more acceptable to those instructors and agencies currently teaching the skills and techniques required to safely dive within a cavern zone. Also in a means to help those PADI divers who hold a PADI Cavern certification and desire to proceed on with other levels of cave training.
I make myself available to discuss the PADI Cavern Diver program further. I feel that these sort of changes are needed as I cannot teach to the standards of PADI and permit a student to advance in addition cave level courses without repeating cavern training under the standards and procedures of another agency.
Sincerely for your review
Rick Murcar
Genesis Diving Institute of Florida
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