Padi/ Bsac

[bermudaskink]

Ooops - this was meant to be a reply to other threads about agencies...
but I can't move it now...
____________________________________________________
I am a PADI Instructor and I just want to add a few points:

1) Most recreational diving takes place in tropical waters

2) Nobody wanting to dive in these waters needs to spend several months in a swimming pool first.

3) I agree that diving in the UK may require a certain degree of skill that some PADI Open Water diviers may not have. However, people are responsible for themselves and should dive within their own limitations. If they don't, it's not PADI'd fault!

4) I hate all this agency bashing. At the end of the day it's just stupid competativeness and I would like to remind anoyne who likes to bash agencies that one of the most loved aspects of this sport is that it is NON COMPETATIVE!

It is very hard to regulate the quality of instructors but that is what PADI Quality Assurance does. If anyone does witness poor instruction they should report it (the same goes for any other agency)!! This is far more constructive than slating the agency on a website because of a few poor representatives.

5) PADI makes money from selling teaching materials. Get over it! These teaching materials are brilliant and they come in a variety of styles - books, DVDs, CD - ROMS, quizzes, lesson guides. I don't believe BSAC supplies such a diversity of materials but they offer a different type of course, where you have to attend lectures and many scheduled confined water sessions. It's cheaper and if you choose BSAC to learn diving you'll be expected to teach or help out later on for nothing. This is the major difference. The way the courses are structured. It doesn't mean one is better than the other. It also depends on what you want out of a scuba certification. If you want to go to the Cayman Islands and dive and that's all you want to do and you only have 2 weeks to learn to dive before you go on holiday I would harldy recommend you learn through BSAC. But if you live in the UK and are interested in taking up a hobby and joining a club and learning to dive in local conditions and have plenty of time and not very much money then take the BSAC path.

6) Dive centres arethe ones who make most of the money from certifying divers. All the dive centre has to do is buy a manual from PADI ($15 aprox), the videos (only have to but them once), the certification card ($13), and pay an instructor (not a lot!). To run a course costs a dive centre almost nothing. The instructors often don't get a fair cut in the profits. If anyone is going to slate PADI for money making then they should really focus on the dive centre owners because they are the ones raking it in. Dive Centres also force PADI instructors to dive more than they should, take the maximum number of students when they shouldn't and often overload instructors to the point where their quality of teaching is affected. Again. not the agency's fault nor the instructors.

7) If a diver or an intstructor are "poor" divers or teachers that is not the certification agency's fault. At the end of the day it depends on individuals and their experience and what they have learned (good and bad habits) along the way. Poor divers can slip through the standards and pass all the courses of any agency and still end up being appauling in the water! PADI or BSAC or whatever. For any agency, it is impossible to not certify a diver if they pass all the requirements but still end up being a general nightmare in the water! There is no criteria for not certifying a "potential diving hazard" if they have passed all requirements but make you feel like they shouldn't really dive. That's why you end up with these certified divers who can't really dive without a great deal of assistance (even Rescue Divers or Dive Leaders!). But who's fault is that? You can't tell someone that they can't dive because they just suck! You can warn them, and advise them on how to be better and you can refuse to take them out on your boat, but at the end of the day you can't control what they do. It's just a shame that some of us will have to put up with them or even rescue them. But on the good side - they keep us alert and remind us how NOT to dive!!

8) I took my PADI IDC (instructor course) last year and we had PADI dive masters and BSAC crossovers taking the course. Some of the performances I witnessed were horendous! Yet, they still qualified as instructors. One of the course attendants was already a BSAC instructor and his demonstration skills, equipment maintainance, and overall awareness of diving was appauling but he managed to scrape through. But I have also met PADI instructors who are equally worrying. Again, it's not the agency who is to blame. It is individuals or dive centres that need to take the blame and you need to report it so something can be done about it!

Stay Safe
Dive Happy

 

[sheck33]

i]bermudaskink once bubbled... [/i]

<some snipping done>

quote:

'3) I agree that diving in the UK may require a certain degree of skill that some PADI Open Water diviers may not have. However, people are responsible for themselves and should dive within their own limitations. If they don't, it's not PADI'd fault! '

Agreed

quote:

'Dive Centres also force PADI instructors to dive more than they should, take the maximum number of students when they shouldn't and often overload instructors to the point where their quality of teaching is affected. Again. not the agency's fault nor the instructors.'


BS, if a dive centre 'forces' an instructor from any agency to do these things it is the instructors fault! if an instructor teaches in conditions where quality of teaching is affected in a negative way the instructor is to blame, no one else. a good instructor with a sense of responsebility would refuse to teach. and ultimately the agency should stop their instructors from doing this.

quote:

'7) If a diver or an intstructor are "poor" divers or teachers that is not the certification agency's fault. At the end of the day it depends on individuals and their experience and what they have learned (good and bad habits) along the way. Poor divers can slip through the standards and pass all the courses of any agency and still end up being appauling in the water! PADI or BSAC or whatever. For any agency, it is impossible to not certify a diver if they pass all the requirements but still end up being a general nightmare in the water! '

BS, how is a poor instructor not ultimately an agency's responsibility? if a diver 'slips trough the standards' and passes all the courses/requirements and ends up a disaster in the water then what does that tell you? it tells you that there is something seriously wrong with the standards and/or course now doesnt it.
(unless you are dealing with a person that will just never get it, but that is very rare)

 

[MikeFerrara]

bermudaskink once bubbled...
Ooops - this was meant to be a reply to other threads about agencies...
but I can't move it now...
____________________________________________________
I am a PADI Instructor and I just want to add a few points:

1) Most recreational diving takes place in tropical waters

Not true especially for divers being trained in the US midwest, Canada and many other places. It is true and IMO a crime though that they are trained in such a way that assumes they'll be diving in the tropics.

2) Nobody wanting to dive in these waters needs to spend several months in a swimming pool first.

The basic skills required to dive well are the same for all waters.

3) I agree that diving in the UK may require a certain degree of skill that some PADI Open Water diviers may not have. However, people are responsible for themselves and should dive within their own limitations. If they don't, it's not PADI'd fault!

You mean, unless they were given an incorrect impression of what their limitations are by an inadequate class?

6) Dive centres arethe ones who make most of the money from certifying divers. All the dive centre has to do is buy a manual from PADI ($15 aprox), the videos (only have to but them once), the certification card ($13), and pay an instructor (not a lot!). To run a course costs a dive centre almost nothing. The instructors often don't get a fair cut in the profits. If anyone is going to slate PADI for money making then they should really focus on the dive centre owners because they are the ones raking it in. Dive Centres also force PADI instructors to dive more than they should, take the maximum number of students when they shouldn't and often overload instructors to the point where their quality of teaching is affected. Again. not the agency's fault nor the instructors.

Where in the sam hill did you get this. A PADI OW crew pack costs the dive center about $50 US. What do you mean that you only have to buy the video once? Are you suggesting making copies or making the students watch them in class? One is a breach of copywrite and the other is a waist of class time, IMO. OW classes are largely a loss leader. Around here pool time is also expensive. We don't make money on a class unless it sells equipment. The instructor is responsible for the size of the class he's willing to teach. But in either case I could never afford to have any one else teach the class and I would never consider doing that to myself. [QUOTE

7) If a diver or an intstructor are "poor" divers or teachers that is not the certification agency's fault. At the end of the day it depends on individuals and their experience and what they have learned (good and bad habits) along the way. Poor divers can slip through the standards and pass all the courses of any agency and still end up being appauling in the water! PADI or BSAC or whatever. For any agency, it is impossible to not certify a diver if they pass all the requirements but still end up being a general nightmare in the water! There is no criteria for not certifying a "potential diving hazard" if they have passed all requirements but make you feel like they shouldn't really dive. That's why you end up with these certified divers who can't really dive without a great deal of assistance (even Rescue Divers or Dive Leaders!). But who's fault is that? You can't tell someone that they can't dive because they just suck! You can warn them, and advise them on how to be better and you can refuse to take them out on your boat, but at the end of the day you can't control what they do. It's just a shame that some of us will have to put up with them or even rescue them. But on the good side - they keep us alert and remind us how NOT to dive!!

8) I took my PADI IDC (instructor course) last year and we had PADI dive masters and BSAC crossovers taking the course. Some of the performances I witnessed were horendous! Yet, they still qualified as instructors. One of the course attendants was already a BSAC instructor and his demonstration skills, equipment maintainance, and overall awareness of diving was appauling but he managed to scrape through. But I have also met PADI instructors who are equally worrying. Again, it's not the agency who is to blame. It is individuals or dive centres that need to take the blame and you need to report it so something can be done about it!

Stay Safe
Dive Happy [/QUOTE]

The instructors diving and teaching skill are the responsibility of the agency. In order to pump through the huge numbers of students that shop need in order to sell enough equipment they also need large numbers of instructors. The name of the game with instructors is the same as with OW divers. the name of the game is numbers.

 

[Diversauras]

I agree with bermudaskink, instructors teach not agencies.

I think the agencies enable the instructors and if the instructors teach responsibly, they empower their agencies. I think that it is fine for us to all complain about instructors who do not have the moral backbone to teach what they know is right when their employer LDSs try to make them under run their agency standards. Needing to make profit, can't charge enough, not enough time... all are excuses for not doing what is right, no matter who it is that is not doing it.

Short of the government stepping in to QA dive instruction, only the instructors can fix the problem. The government will probably not step in because IMHO, despite the all the talk, the problem is much more perceived than real, and the evidence is the lack of diver deaths and the din of public outcry.

I also think that OW students are taught skills to better dive in their local conditions. I think that can mean that UK divers may well be better suited to 4 meter tides and 2 kt currents than midwestern US quarry divers. I also think that the quarry diver should be able to learn the techniques for UK diving in short order, assuming the basics he holds are solid.

 

[Allen42]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

What do you mean that you only have to buy the video once? Are you suggesting making copies or making the students watch them in class? One is a breach of copywrite and the other is a waist of class time, IMO.

Many shops loan/rent out their tapes, I believe.

 

[DrSteve]

5) PADI makes money from selling teaching materials. Get over it!
This BSAC/PADi and SSI trained diver has no problem with making money. As quoted to me by my old BSAC instructor (BSAC Advanced instructor number and name can be supplied):
1. PADI's number 1 goal is profit
2. PADI's number 2 goal is enjoyment
3. PADI's number 3 goal is safety.
Can you guess which one BSAC has a problem with?

Now having gotten that off my chest. Some good points. PADI divers are not trained to the same standards as BSAC divers. Why do BSAC instructors play for both teams - money...they like it as much as the rest of us. I was blessed with nothing less than superb instructors with BSAC, SSI and PADI. I cannot fault them. However, I think now as I did then...the basic OW course needs to cover more.

I love BSAC and if I could I would continue with them - but alas I am in the US so I'll be the best diver I can be with whatever agency I stick with. That's what makes me a better diver than Joe Schmo.

 

[bermudaskink]

Firstly - where do people get off telling me what I say is "BS". Didn't know people who dive so much could be so aggressive.
:wacko:

For Sheck33, Mike Ferrara and DrSteve:

To clarify the "dive centers force instructors to teach badly" statement. I didn't say this was absolutely OK for instructors to go along with it but to a certain extent - instructors who rely on teaching for their entire income often don't have the choice. You can only get fired from so many dive centers. I don't teach diving to make money. I teach PADI courses to friends and relatives at the moment as a hobby and I charge cost price (they only pay for the manual, an RDP table and the cert card). But if I imagine myself working out here for one the 4 dive centers on the island and my boss is telling me I need to work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day, with few breaks, gives me maximum number of students when the conditions are a little dodgy and I'd rather take less - there's only so many times I can get get a new job!! For non-natives, work permits are very hard to get hold of and once you have one, it’s pretty hard to complain against your employer. I assume this is the case for many instructors working in foreign countries, especially those countries where the rights of over seas workers are not considered a high priority.

I've spoken to dive instructors who have suffered from dive centers, that while following safety standards, may push instructors so far that they can't give 100% and end up certifying students that haven't had the benefit of better tuition and closer attention. It's hard to criticise the employee when they are trying hard to make a living and their employer is telling them what to do and they don't want to get fired.

It's not so easy to be the best instructor you can be when you've got a money driven boss breathing down your neck.

That was my point. I wasn't saying that instructors can blame their employers for all their mistakes.

I'm glad I teach independently and if I do turn to teaching through a center to bring in earnings for me I hope I will stick to my guns and not let a dive centre walk all over my teaching credibility.

But to make an analogy of my point...

It's too easy for us to blame Brazilians for chopping down the rainforest, but it's difficult to go up to a poverty stricken villager and tell them not to cut down that tree when there is nothing else around to make him any money to feed his family.

I've talked to many instructors who feel that their teaching quality has suffered because they have been overloaded with students. Even though they haven't broken any agency standards, they feel like they were not able to teach to their best ability. You're right, instructors shouldn't give into dive centers in a perfect world but the bottom line is - most of them who need to money - do give in. Can you really blame them?

Also, while it may be true for some dive centers - that equipment sales make all the money - that is not true for most dive centers I have been to. In Bermuda for example - they charge $400 for an open water course and they don't sell much in the way of equipment. They do a lot of Discover Scuba Diving courses and instructor and Divemaster led dives and make a lot of money from those in addition to the other courses. This was also what I have observed for dive centres in Egypt, the Maldives and the Dominican Republic. In Australia however, I saw a lot more equipment for sale though.

In order to teach an Open Water Course - all a dive centre needs to purchase from PADI is a manual, an RDP table and a cert card. Comes to a grand total of $41 (if a centre is ordering in bulk of at least 100 manuals and tables etc.) It's “BS” that a centre has to pay $50 for a crew pak. In bulk OW crew paks cost just over half of that price you plucked out of thin air (and to order a single pak from PADI costs just over $40), but my total above to see a student right through includes the $13.80 certification cost and doesn’t involve buying a crew pak which students don’t have to buy if they don’t want to. So, if a center charges $400 per person. You take off $41 it gives to PADI and that’s $359. You can have up to 8 students being taught by one instructor in Open Water – 10 students in confined water – you do you Maths – you consider how much the instructor might get and how much in boat fuel and other expenses you need to add on. But after 10 students hand you each their $400, and you subtract what you had to give to PADI, there’s a lot of money to be made by the dive centre there!!

And with regards to the video only having to be purchased from PADI once. You can either lend a student a video so they can watch it in their spare time, however usually students watch the video in class. Yet you say that is a waste of class time!
There are various reasons for watching a video in class. 1) How many people take a multi regional VCR away with them on holiday? 2) It's nice to be able to stop the tape and answer any questions for students. 3) You can make sure your students are actually watching it - esp. if you are teaching teenagers or kids - it's not a great idea to have them take it home and give it back the next day and tell you they watched it and then you have to spend ages going over basic things the video covered when they get a load of knowledge reviews wrong.

So, back to my original point. PADI doesn’t actually make as much as you think. But yeah, it is a business and yeah it makes money from people learning to dive. What’s wrong with that? PADI makes money from teaching divers how to be safe and have fun underwater. If a student follows all of PADI’s recommendations and advice and has been taught by a fairly decent instructor they will have as much chance of being safe underwater as a diver trained by any other agency to the same level in any waters (so long as they are familiar with what skills are required for diving in different waters from what they were trained in, and have suitable experience or training for whatever those conditions may be). The company who makes the books and the videos for students to use for learning to dive isn’t responsible for divers safety, the divers are! I do believe that PADI sufficiently provides the teaching materials and standards for novice divers to learn how NOT to kill themselves underwater and gives them the skills necessary to have a safe and fun diving experience and reminds them to dive only within their own limits. How can PADI do any better than that? I am sure they would like to know.

I just don’t understand why people have such a big problem with PADI? What’s really wrong with they way they make Scuba diving so easy to teach? The accident rates for divers trained by other agencies are the same as those suffered by PADI divers after all.

I bet you don’t bother ranting about Exxon or Shell, or Mc Donalds, Or Coca Cola who really do exploit the entire world population for every cent they can get while completely screwing with our economies, our health, the 3 world and the environment – in fact I bet you regularly buy into these companies.

Take a good look at as many divers from as many agencies as you can and tell me that PADI divers are the worst…. I think you’ll find they are not.

Like I said, it’s many bad instructors (yes they can slip through the standards of the agency which can't control what happens after they certify them unless someone reports them!), many poorly run dive centers and the divers themselves that are to blame for poor divers. Not agencies.

 

[sheck33]

i do not agree with your 'poverty stricken villager' analogy. the villager didnt choose to be poverty stricken or he/she didnt choose to be born in a less than rich country. Instructors however did have a choice. if you as an instructor have to make a living and you let your teaching quality slide because the divecenter only cares about money and not safety you shouldnt be teaching, if you are not willing to commit to having safety and teaching quality your number one priority you shouldnt be teaching.

as to why people have a problem with PADI, there is a multitude of white hot threads discussing that issue

personally i have stopped being involved in PADI classes because i do not agree with they way things are done.

 

[DrSteve]

Bermudaskink. You do make some great points, well thought out etc., I take my hat off to anyone able to atticulate such an arguement so well.

Just one other question - if you teach at cost. Why not teach the BSAC system? Also while you are at it, how would you change the BSAC syllabus to take into account local syllabus?

 

[bermudaskink]

I am not a BSAC instructor (only just crossed over to Dive Leader recently) and if I wanted to be one that would involve me taking yet another long drawn out course and set of exams when they arrange a National Visit out here. I don't really have the time or the inclination to do that. I got my PADI OWSI certification and that's enough for me right now.

Plus, I actually prefer PADI's teaching materials, and courses. For teaching in the tropics , I think PADI (or NAUI) is a better way to go. BSACs never ending pool sessions can be quite off putting for many people. Teaching PADI for bottom dollar prices means my friends and family get the best of both worlds. A fast and fairly easy way to get underwater without it costing them an arm and a leg!

Didn't really understand your second question Dr Steve. Sorry. Not being a BSAC instructor I am not fully aware of the BSAC syllabus and how it can be adapted locally.