PADI Advanced Open Water: Did you learn anything new?
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I wold say to you that you opinion is a symptom of what is happening out in the field or pond as it may be. you can only look at the minimum requirements of a course to say is it worth it. the real value comes from the instructors that make the course into something that is actually useful.
for instance deep is past 60 ft, so what do you learn by doing a dive to 65 ft as opposed to doing a dive to 100 ft. The system is only as good as the weakest component. the instructor and the market. you can not experience the oncoming narcosis by doing a problem at 65 feet. the ow thinks there is nothing new to aow. so they do not persue it. Then there are the dive trips tht take folks to 100 ft with noting more than an ow card that the ink is still wet. a low for the market. ask a aow how they would do a cesa from 100 ft. if they still remember the steps frm ow they repeat them. Or what to expect if they tried to do a cesa from 100 ft. then ask about soing it from 150 ft. and ou t teh same answer. I lookk at ow as learning the most basic skills to survive a 50 ft dive. 60 per padi. then aow should prepare you with new skills to deal with depths to 100 ft. that requires attentioin to surroundings, routines and skills that have not been perfected or taught in OW. No one is safe at 100 ft after watching some dvd's answering some questions and hitting hte water, then preforming a regulator recovery and a flooded mask drill with a cesa from 15 ft and an insructor holding your feet to prevent a run away. You may say this is BS but it is what is happening in the field. not everywhere but it is happening to a large exent. especially for diving in inland waters. poor folks dont know what they are into when they take that vacation dive int he ocean.
I'm not a good case for modern AOW courses, but I'll offer some thoughts on what I've seen helping out instructors.
First, I'm not a good model because I was YMCA OW certified back in 1985. Whether it was the agency or the instructor, the course was incredibly thorough. We learned deco tables and were never told not to do deco dives, for example. (But we were taught rebreathers will kill you. And had a skeptical eye on that voodoo gas stuff. You might say my instructor was a bit old-fashioned.) My AOW was with a guy I worked with, and we'd been diving a lot together for work. We'd done deep and night dives, for example, before I even thought about getting AOW. We'd used compass orientation for 3-leg dives. That said, search and recovery techniques was new for me, and I picked up some useful tips on night dives. Fish ID? Shoot, he and I were TEACHING fish ID. (For college credit, not certification.) The point of getting the card was I needed to get Rescue to be consistent with AAUS standards, so I had to get AOW first.
In classes I've helped with, I've seen a thorough class where lots of useful skills were taught. (Lift bags, implement various search patterns, compass navigation, night diving safety, etc.) I've also seen ones that were more of a "let's do some fun dives together." As has been written about 18 million times on this board, instructor matters.
However, even with the more "let's do some fun dives together" I can see the advantage of AOW for at least some divers. I've seen folks certified OW by the skin of their teeth. They really need more supervised experience. Maybe they shouldn't have been certified, but that ship has sailed. If getting a card gets them more experience before they end up ruining some poor insta-buddy's dive, great.
I suppose it's a spin on the old "you can fool some of the people all of the time" saying. Some of the AOW classes will benefit all of the AOW divers, and all of the AOW classes will benefit some of the divers, but not all of the AOW classes will benefit all of the divers.
First, I'm not a good model because I was YMCA OW certified back in 1985. Whether it was the agency or the instructor, the course was incredibly thorough. We learned deco tables and were never told not to do deco dives, for example. (But we were taught rebreathers will kill you. And had a skeptical eye on that voodoo gas stuff. You might say my instructor was a bit old-fashioned.) My AOW was with a guy I worked with, and we'd been diving a lot together for work. We'd done deep and night dives, for example, before I even thought about getting AOW. We'd used compass orientation for 3-leg dives. That said, search and recovery techniques was new for me, and I picked up some useful tips on night dives. Fish ID? Shoot, he and I were TEACHING fish ID. (For college credit, not certification.) The point of getting the card was I needed to get Rescue to be consistent with AAUS standards, so I had to get AOW first.
In classes I've helped with, I've seen a thorough class where lots of useful skills were taught. (Lift bags, implement various search patterns, compass navigation, night diving safety, etc.) I've also seen ones that were more of a "let's do some fun dives together." As has been written about 18 million times on this board, instructor matters.
However, even with the more "let's do some fun dives together" I can see the advantage of AOW for at least some divers. I've seen folks certified OW by the skin of their teeth. They really need more supervised experience. Maybe they shouldn't have been certified, but that ship has sailed. If getting a card gets them more experience before they end up ruining some poor insta-buddy's dive, great.
I suppose it's a spin on the old "you can fool some of the people all of the time" saying. Some of the AOW classes will benefit all of the AOW divers, and all of the AOW classes will benefit some of the divers, but not all of the AOW classes will benefit all of the divers.
I did my AOW as the very first dives after OW... for a reason.
That year my son did OW in a youth camp abroad & loved it (long story).
That, after some family talk gave me a liscence to take OW... end of October in a 5mm suit just before Quarry closure... . So we both never dove together, but we’re about to conquer Bonaire on our own. Well, while I was perfect of course with my 7 or so logged dive, I thought I could need a little help with my son. Since Nitrox was no upcharge on Bonaire with Dive Friends, we did that class at home before the trip... but booke AOW with Dive Friends... and did it on the busy X-mas holidays... With instructors we‘ll never see again... Not an ideal set-up at all... but just right for us in that situation. we both had a lot to yet learn, but, so, what did I learn:
- While I actually keenly knew I was not perfect and will not be in a long time (as diver, otherwise of course I am... (not), I read a few books and knew more in theory than I could handle in practice. The perfect buoancy part of the class was the initially most humbling and best part. By far. (Thank you Jeffrey!)
- The rest was maybe more supervised activity then real focused learning, but, with the option to solicit feedback, it was still helpful. I learned that if you are not the worst in class and you still want to improve that you need to ask and make the instructor actually observe you too to give you helpful feedback.
- I learned and gained confidence that my son and I actually can do this w/o killing each other (teenager dynamics and such worries) and even can work well together as a buddy team.
- I learned that we can trust each other... if we both are, prior to the dive, very well on the same page about the dive ...
So, a good remaining 8 or 9 diving days of DIY diving followed, ‚‚twas great and while I don‘t think the class was as good as could be at all, the perfect buoancy part (did I say thank you Jeffrey) was... and the head start we got from the class only helped overall. And probably also made our self guided learning in the fun dive Bonaire exploring days after the class more focussed, more honed in on what still needs improving.
That year my son did OW in a youth camp abroad & loved it (long story).
That, after some family talk gave me a liscence to take OW... end of October in a 5mm suit just before Quarry closure... . So we both never dove together, but we’re about to conquer Bonaire on our own. Well, while I was perfect of course with my 7 or so logged dive, I thought I could need a little help with my son. Since Nitrox was no upcharge on Bonaire with Dive Friends, we did that class at home before the trip... but booke AOW with Dive Friends... and did it on the busy X-mas holidays... With instructors we‘ll never see again... Not an ideal set-up at all... but just right for us in that situation. we both had a lot to yet learn, but, so, what did I learn:
- While I actually keenly knew I was not perfect and will not be in a long time (as diver, otherwise of course I am... (not), I read a few books and knew more in theory than I could handle in practice. The perfect buoancy part of the class was the initially most humbling and best part. By far. (Thank you Jeffrey!)
- The rest was maybe more supervised activity then real focused learning, but, with the option to solicit feedback, it was still helpful. I learned that if you are not the worst in class and you still want to improve that you need to ask and make the instructor actually observe you too to give you helpful feedback.
- I learned and gained confidence that my son and I actually can do this w/o killing each other (teenager dynamics and such worries) and even can work well together as a buddy team.
- I learned that we can trust each other... if we both are, prior to the dive, very well on the same page about the dive ...
So, a good remaining 8 or 9 diving days of DIY diving followed, ‚‚twas great and while I don‘t think the class was as good as could be at all, the perfect buoancy part (did I say thank you Jeffrey) was... and the head start we got from the class only helped overall. And probably also made our self guided learning in the fun dive Bonaire exploring days after the class more focussed, more honed in on what still needs improving.
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I won't read all the posts because there could be a million answers--here is mine--
I took it after doing 6 post OW dives, so there was some new stuff for me as opposed to someone who took it after 80 dives doing various activities.
Night Dive--Learned what it looked like with a light.
PPB--Was OK, but my weighting & buoyancy was already pretty decent.
Deep--Only to 63 feet, so nothing new.
S & R--All new to me, the patterns, etc.
Nav--New compass stuff, on land first then uw. Also learned 3 knots, which I actually perfected and STILL do once daily.
As one instructor said on SB--"I teach DM Candidates the 3 knots so they can become instructors someday and teach future DMs and instructors 3 knots they'll never use".
So, it cost some $, but my instructor was good and I did learn some stuff. Most of it I haven't really used as my diving is usually simple benign shallow known dive sites.
Besides, back in the winter of 2006 doing AOW was the only way I'd get on a boat that was going out on the FL panhandle.
I took it after doing 6 post OW dives, so there was some new stuff for me as opposed to someone who took it after 80 dives doing various activities.
Night Dive--Learned what it looked like with a light.
PPB--Was OK, but my weighting & buoyancy was already pretty decent.
Deep--Only to 63 feet, so nothing new.
S & R--All new to me, the patterns, etc.
Nav--New compass stuff, on land first then uw. Also learned 3 knots, which I actually perfected and STILL do once daily.
As one instructor said on SB--"I teach DM Candidates the 3 knots so they can become instructors someday and teach future DMs and instructors 3 knots they'll never use".
So, it cost some $, but my instructor was good and I did learn some stuff. Most of it I haven't really used as my diving is usually simple benign shallow known dive sites.
Besides, back in the winter of 2006 doing AOW was the only way I'd get on a boat that was going out on the FL panhandle.
RTC'83
Contributor
I had great instructors. My LDS has a variety of instructors with specialize skills. I was able to take advantage of that fact. It seemed like they were giving me a little extra.
To me it was not just the card, it was really a neat learning experience.
To me it was not just the card, it was really a neat learning experience.
I was trying to find the reply post by deadog [[[[[[[[[[
dead dog liked your post in the thread PADI Advanced Open Water: Did you learn anything new?.]]]]]]]]]]]]]
To answer that No Like seaweed doc a couple posts ago. I did a ymca course in the late 60's. that course was the equivalant of OW through master diver. I took my aow course in 2003 35 years later. In my YMCA course we took the regular stuff inclusing first aid,, cpr,,, rescue,,,deep. yes deep not the pansi greater than 60 ft version of deep. It was 8 weeks twice a week for 2-3 hours. When you got that card the next in line was divemaster. Now because of a lost card I went through it all again with padi nauii ssi iantd etc,,,, class by class. now i have my master and i do not care to be a company man After all that I am not sure what bugs me more. the ignorance and out right incompitance of new divers or the shops that will not give me a nitrox fill because i only handed then a trimix 50 card and not the nitrox card. What perhaps makes this problem even worse is that with the economy as it is. shops have closed. padi is I am guessing one of the only primary agencies that allow instructors to teach independantly. (not associated with a shop). The trainees are not even close to the calibre that was in the past decades. I dont expect to have buddies that are stars. but I do darn well expect that any AOW buddy dives in some fashion other than riding a bicycle through the water at 30 ft and asking why im not going to 60 ft with them. Then on the opposite side of the coin there are those OW's that took a long time to get their card but have skills that impress me. Because of those variences in skills from the same course content and agency I wonder how any boat will take them out to deep water. Of course that answer is simple. THE WAIVER. It does not take a long time to realize that perhaps ones destiny is to dive with these folks and fix what is broke. We have all had problems one time or another. Never when i have needed assistance has a buddy helped. they will sit back and watch while you put their buddies tank back in their BC but that is the end of it. So what I have learned (not via AOW) is that buddies are useless and you need to be totally self sufficient. learn SOLO diving. I no longer think of my self as buddy diving. it is solo diving on my part and i have tasked my self to be a buddy for the other guy because so many times they have no clue. Then the other side comes out again and they cruise along with you about 5 feet away, diving like this months centerfold diver,
dead dog liked your post in the thread PADI Advanced Open Water: Did you learn anything new?.]]]]]]]]]]]]]
To answer that No Like seaweed doc a couple posts ago. I did a ymca course in the late 60's. that course was the equivalant of OW through master diver. I took my aow course in 2003 35 years later. In my YMCA course we took the regular stuff inclusing first aid,, cpr,,, rescue,,,deep. yes deep not the pansi greater than 60 ft version of deep. It was 8 weeks twice a week for 2-3 hours. When you got that card the next in line was divemaster. Now because of a lost card I went through it all again with padi nauii ssi iantd etc,,,, class by class. now i have my master and i do not care to be a company man After all that I am not sure what bugs me more. the ignorance and out right incompitance of new divers or the shops that will not give me a nitrox fill because i only handed then a trimix 50 card and not the nitrox card. What perhaps makes this problem even worse is that with the economy as it is. shops have closed. padi is I am guessing one of the only primary agencies that allow instructors to teach independantly. (not associated with a shop). The trainees are not even close to the calibre that was in the past decades. I dont expect to have buddies that are stars. but I do darn well expect that any AOW buddy dives in some fashion other than riding a bicycle through the water at 30 ft and asking why im not going to 60 ft with them. Then on the opposite side of the coin there are those OW's that took a long time to get their card but have skills that impress me. Because of those variences in skills from the same course content and agency I wonder how any boat will take them out to deep water. Of course that answer is simple. THE WAIVER. It does not take a long time to realize that perhaps ones destiny is to dive with these folks and fix what is broke. We have all had problems one time or another. Never when i have needed assistance has a buddy helped. they will sit back and watch while you put their buddies tank back in their BC but that is the end of it. So what I have learned (not via AOW) is that buddies are useless and you need to be totally self sufficient. learn SOLO diving. I no longer think of my self as buddy diving. it is solo diving on my part and i have tasked my self to be a buddy for the other guy because so many times they have no clue. Then the other side comes out again and they cruise along with you about 5 feet away, diving like this months centerfold diver,
NAUI Wowie
Contributor
Lol you totally remind me of my dad. Not completely a good thing ha! He was a Naui YMCA scuba instructor around 1962. was a young guy then obviously I think he is 77 years old now in nov 2018. Basically all you said is true, YMCA was a damn boot camp and many couldnt do it. You do have a lot of old man complaining in that post and ive heard it all from my dad also. Why did I wait most of my life to get certified at 51? When I love the water? Life man....life. Regret it and wish im 30 years experienced scuba. But im not im a newbie. 30 dives. That said Im the newer diver that will shadow you at 5 foot distance like a barracuda as it were....though they stay further away....and just stay within distance to be of aid if theres a malfunction and in case i get in trouble. Ill be nuetrally boyant and horizontal. I wont race ahead or get distracted.
Trying to learn how to stay alive safely underwater. Yea I too even with limited dives have seen complete idiots on liveaboards and local monterey dive boats. Had people steal brand new fins out of my dive bag and argue that the fins were their fins, a dive later they find their on worn fins and realize they were wrong.
totally empathize with you old man. but dang you talk just like my pop back in PA. lmao, and we get into some big ol rows arguing haha. Love that guy.
YMCA was the best for diving back in the day.
thanks for the memories lol and yea my dad is still kicking but not diving. just hunting
oh by the way I think my reply was just a random rant. You reminded me of my dad too much lol and i started typing.
Thank you ScubaBoard community for added insight and chuckles . I read every post and am grateful for you taking the time and effort in posting replies.
So it seems there isn’t anything “wrong” with what I’m going through. So it sounds like AOW is supposed to be new dive experiences under supervision, learning through the experience, sharpening what we already learned and applying it in different situations while picking up some more information along the dives. No classroom time.
Just wanted to clarify whether other PADI aow experience was similar and I didn’t get less of what others learned. I thought it would be a whole new level of skills similar to ow certification.
And yes, I did learn compass navigation, albeit not as in-depth as I thought it would be. But then again, I don’t know how in-depth you can get with a compass.
I’ll be finishing up this weekend on a boat doing drift dive and wreck dive for the last two dives. I imagine I’ll learn how to deploy smb/dsmb on the drift? I don’t imagine I’ll learn any new skill in the wreck dive... obviously no penetration.
————
On another note, when and how do you learn about diving on your own (with a buddy) using the dive flag/tube? Is this another paid course?
Most of my diving was through guided dives tagging along instructors or DMs and they always set up the dive flags. When I dive alone (with just a buddy - not solo diving) we just dive where lot of other divers dive and they always have flags on tube. So never learned about using dive flags. Or was this something covered in ow certification that I completely don’t remember?
I would like to dive on my own time and dive with just a buddy - no instructor or dm. How and when does this happen? I mean I’m more than comfortable underwater and also confident in my dive abilities to dive any of the dive sites on-island (so long as there’s nothing overhead). But I want to be lawful and considerate to others and not have to put either of us in unnecessary risks. Is it as simple as just buying a dive flag and going under?
Thanks again for your time!
So it seems there isn’t anything “wrong” with what I’m going through. So it sounds like AOW is supposed to be new dive experiences under supervision, learning through the experience, sharpening what we already learned and applying it in different situations while picking up some more information along the dives. No classroom time.
Just wanted to clarify whether other PADI aow experience was similar and I didn’t get less of what others learned. I thought it would be a whole new level of skills similar to ow certification.
And yes, I did learn compass navigation, albeit not as in-depth as I thought it would be. But then again, I don’t know how in-depth you can get with a compass.
I’ll be finishing up this weekend on a boat doing drift dive and wreck dive for the last two dives. I imagine I’ll learn how to deploy smb/dsmb on the drift? I don’t imagine I’ll learn any new skill in the wreck dive... obviously no penetration.
————
On another note, when and how do you learn about diving on your own (with a buddy) using the dive flag/tube? Is this another paid course?
Most of my diving was through guided dives tagging along instructors or DMs and they always set up the dive flags. When I dive alone (with just a buddy - not solo diving) we just dive where lot of other divers dive and they always have flags on tube. So never learned about using dive flags. Or was this something covered in ow certification that I completely don’t remember?
I would like to dive on my own time and dive with just a buddy - no instructor or dm. How and when does this happen? I mean I’m more than comfortable underwater and also confident in my dive abilities to dive any of the dive sites on-island (so long as there’s nothing overhead). But I want to be lawful and considerate to others and not have to put either of us in unnecessary risks. Is it as simple as just buying a dive flag and going under?
Thanks again for your time!
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