PADI a pain?!?

[MikeFerrara]

It's PADI. I've witnessed this behavior and mentality on several occasions, including twice on myself, back in the days of my first dives.

The reasoning is along the lines - the customers should relax and enjoy the sightseeing and not focus on their buoyancy.

No. The answer to what the reasoning is lies in understanding what the "Dive Today Philosophy" is. The idea is to get people in the water, get them interested and keep them interested. By arranging things the way they have students can get training credit for that resort try-it dive...and so already being part way to certification serves as incentive for them to complete the program. That's all good from a marketing standpoint. From in instructional or even a safety standpoint, I think it's a total nightmare.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You take every opportunity to let everyone hear your opinion about how evil PADI is as well. I'm sure the intelligent folks here at SB understand that you bear malice toward PADI and as such your opinions concerning them should be taken lightly.

The intelligent folks here at SB may or may not understand why walter has the point of view he does. One thing is certain though, and that is that VERY few understand the PADI system of dive training. PADI, by virtue of the stack of instructor cards they gave me, says that I understand it though. That's why, I try to support all my arguments with what the standards actually say. The standards speak for themselves though sometimes non-instructors, new instructors and/or new divers need a hint here and there in order to understand the full extent of the implications of what the standards actually say (or don't say).

 

[Mark_J]

The answer to what the reasoning is lies in understanding what the "Dive Today Philosophy" is. The idea is to get people in the water, get them interested and keep them interested.

I think every diver should support efforts to make our sport more appealing to people, so let me ask this question. If you were head of PADI, what program would you initiate to expose more people to the sport of diving without requiring them to go through time consuming courses to find out if they are the least bit interested?

 

[mislav]

Here we go again... How is this:

The reasoning is along the lines - the customers should relax and enjoy the sightseeing and not focus on their buoyancy.

...different from this:

No. The answer to what the reasoning is lies in understanding what the "Dive Today Philosophy" is. The idea is to get people in the water, get them interested and keep them interested.

...or especially with this:

It is true.

The discover Scuba program is a shallow confined water program. You show them how to breath through and clear a reg. Tell them about equalization and then it's play time. It's not too bad since is shallow confined water.

The Discover Scuba Diving program is basically confined water mod 1 and open water dive one.

Skills can't be moved from one module to another and buoyancy control isn't introduced until module three...with the fin pivot.

 

[mislav]

It's the whole industry but PADI is the undisputed leader.

So, you're agreeing with me then?

I blieve that's completely false. I've witnessed many poor quality classes but I have witnessed very few actual standards violations. PADI will enforce their standards. Unfortunately the standards really don't require all that much.

the VAST majority of instructors adhere to standards the best they know how. The vast majority do a "good job" as it is defined by PADI and whoever the instructor may be employed by. They teach the way they were taught to teach. True, there are some instructors who are real masters at using the letter of the standards to teach the most cost effective class they can but that's just business and they don't have to violate standards to do it.

The "fault" or "blame" if there is any lies almost completely with the standards. By watching classes and reading the standards this is more than demonstrable.

So, you don't agree with those who say "It's the instructor, not the agency"?

I've witnessed first hand some of the standards violations. TS&M reported having a similar experience as well. We're not alone. So I say: in addition to lowering standards by PADI, there are standards violations by individual instructors. They may not be in majority, but many posters use bad instructors as examples of bad PADI. Not me. I say - read your coursebook. Sometimes the stuff is actually there for you to learn, but you weren't given the chance.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think every diver should support efforts to make our sport more appealing to people, so let me ask this question.

Why? I'm not sure that I share that view.

If you were head of PADI, what program would you initiate to expose more people to the sport of diving without requiring them to go through time consuming courses to find out if they are the least bit interested?

I think that have just what you ask for in the Discover Scuba program (the confined shallow water only program). It's fun, safe and a good intro though it doesn't get them on the reef. I don't see a good way to get them on the reef without teaching them something about diving unless you use a sub or something.

In any case, whatever else I might come up with wouldn't include taking someone diving in open water before teaching them the most basic skills needed to dive.

The "Dive Today Philosophy" goes beyond just introducing people to diving. It hoses up the whole course. Once they're in the class you no longer have to sell them and they have obviously already been "introduced" to diving. Once they're in the class the task is to teach them to dive. If you're not going to do that, maybe you shouldn't try so hard to get very many students.

 

[MikeFerrara]

So, you don't agree with those who say "It's the instructor, not the agency"?

Absolutely NOT. I think this one of the two biggest and most rediculous myths in all of diving. An instructor who teaches to the letter of the standard and does nothing at all extra is doing his/her job. If that class isn't good enough, then it's all on the agency.

From the PADI instructors manual introduction

"All PADI programs, entry-level through instructor training, fall under strict educational standards to maintain worldwide consistancy and quality."

They don't want the instructor to make "the difference". They want a PADI class to be a PADI class. I think they have succeeded. It is consistant.

I've witnessed first hand some of the standards violations. TS&M reported having a similar experience as well. We're not alone. So I say: in addition to lowering standards by PADI, there are standards violations by individual instructors. They may not be in majority, but many posters use bad instructors as examples of bad PADI. Not me.

Of course I can't say that no instructor ever violates standards. I am saying that many of the bad classes that we discuss are completely within standards. If we are going to accuse someone of violating standards lets be specific and bas that accusation on the actual standards.

Maybe some posters do use "bad instructors" as example of bad PADI. I'm with you and I'd rather not do that. My argument with PADI is IN the standards and the result we get when standards are followed.

I say - read your coursebook. Sometimes the stuff is actually there for you to learn, but you weren't given the chance.

Well but there are things in the book that the course isn't designed to really teach in the water.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here we go again... How is this:

The reasoning is along the lines - the customers should relax and enjoy the sightseeing and not focus on their buoyancy.

...different from this:

Quote = Me
Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
No. The answer to what the reasoning is lies in understanding what the "Dive Today Philosophy" is. The idea is to get people in the water, get them interested and keep them interested.

...or especially with this:

Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
It is true.

The discover Scuba program is a shallow confined water program. You show them how to breath through and clear a reg. Tell them about equalization and then it's play time. It's not too bad since is shallow confined water.

The Discover Scuba Diving program is basically confined water mod 1 and open water dive one.

Skills can't be moved from one module to another and buoyancy control isn't introduced until module three...with the fin pivot.

Answer...That last section of mine explained how it is that standards don't allow for teaching buoyancy control prior to the descover scuba diving dive.

if I'm understanding the question, the difference is in the two seperate programs. The Discover Scuba is confined water only (pool or pool like conditions). The discover Scuba diving program is an actual open water dive, the organization and crediting of which effects the entire course.

Maybe a difference in scope.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't think he'll get it Mike. He doesn't know enough about the ciriculuum to understand what you're getting at.

Understood. However, some of us are making the assertion that there is a problem with dive training in general and PADI training specifically. We do this in front of an awful lot of PADI trained divers who don't want to hear that their training sucked.

While we may not be completely successful in illustrating the exact nature and extent of our assertions, I don't think it's a wast of time to try to present our reasons for those opinions. It's unlikely that anyone will gain a complete understanding of the standards from a few quotes here and there but it could be enough to get some people thinking. Whether they know it or not, they baught into those standards when they puchased their card. Whether they ultimately agree with you and me or not, it is in their best interest to attempt to understand what we are putting in front of them. At least here, they have a choice.

What are we trying to do? I'm just trying to provide information that divers usually don't have access to for the purpose of giving them choices that they don't usually have or to encourage them to excersize those choices. I don't care anything about saving the industry or helping PADI by telling them how to teach diving. I tried that when I was a card carrying PADI instructor.

I'm just trying to give other divers a "heads up" just because I can.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Understood. However, some of us are making the assertion that there is a problem with dive training in general and PADI training specifically. We do this in front of an awful lot of PADI trained divers who don't want to hear that their training sucked.

While we may not be completely successful in illustrating the exact nature and extent of our assertions, I don't think it's a wast of time to try to present our reasons for those opinions. It's unlikely that anyone will gain a complete understanding of the standards from a few quotes here and there but it could be enough to get some people thinking. Whether they know it or not, they baught into those standards when they puchased their card. Whether they ultimately agree with you and me or not, it is in their best interest to attempt to understand what we are putting in front of them. At least here, they have a choice.

What are we trying to do? I'm just trying to provide information that divers usually don't have access to for the purpose of giving them choices that they don't usually have or to encourage them to excersize those choices. I don't care anything about saving the industry or helping PADI by telling them how to teach diving. I tried that when I was a card carrying PADI instructor.

I'm just trying to give other divers a "heads up" just because I can.

The good news is a lot of people DO get it and in part it is because what you're doing isn't always in vain and doesn't always fall on deaf ears.

And a 'thank you' for that, from me

BTW, do they still send you letters telling you it's annual fee time after all these years?