Over-Balanced??

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Calvinator

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I was looking at the specs of regulators and came across a term "over-balanced". Could anyone tell me the difference between "balanced regulators" and "over-balanced regulators"? Be it technically, difference in how they perform, how the diver would feel, the ease of breathing through either one of those, their difference in performance..... etc., etc.

Thanx!
 
I'm not exactly sure how to explain this, but an overbalanced first stage will "refill" the pressure in your second stage much faster than a balanced or piston style first, basically being easier to breath from when you need alot of air (eg. being deep or exerting yourself alot)
I've never used an "overbalanced reg" but was told by my LDS that you don't really need one unless you are diving to depths like 200' or more. I have a balanced first stage (titan LX) and have found it to be more than adequate at 120'. I even tried one time while i was resting to see how fast i could breathe from it and i could not over-breath my reg. (that was at 90')
 
Calvinator:
I was looking at the specs of regulators and came across a term "over-balanced". Could anyone tell me the difference between "balanced regulators" and "over-balanced regulators"? Be it technically, difference in how they perform, how the diver would feel, the ease of breathing through either one of those, their difference in performance..... etc., etc.

Thanx!

Calvin,

First let's go back to basics.... Forgive me if this is too basic.

A balanced first stage is a first stage that maintains a constant IP (intermediate pressure) as you decend further under water. It compensates for the pressure of the water pressing on everthing. That way when you breathe in the air inside the hoses is at a constant pressure; usually ambient plus 10bar/145psi or so. If you didn't have this then the reg would become increasingly harder to breathe from as you descended. In other words, all first stages are balanced for ambient pressure. On a piston type regulator that's what those little holes in the side of the regulator body are for.

Also don't confuse this with the other kind of balancing, namely balancing for tank pressure. The kind of balancing we're talking about here is balancing for ambient pressure.

So...

An overbalanced first stage is a first stage whose IP increases slightly with depth, usually 110% of ambient if memory serves. In theory an overbalanced first stage should offer slightly less breathing resistance at deeper depths. In practice (I have one of these regs) I can't tell the difference. My personal belief is that the overbalanced design was originally an engineering mistake that they decided to market as a feature. Also, to the best of my knowledge only Apeks and Aqualung make overbalanced first stages.

R..
 
Ambient pressure is ambient pressure and it just acts to increase the pressure exerted by the main spring to open the HP seat with the result that the IP increases by an amount equal to the increase in ambient pressure to balance the system.

IP in a first stage is determined by the pressure needed to balance spring force, the ambient pressure force and the down stream force of the air from the tank. The down stream force changes as tank pressure drops so balancing is used to ensure that the tank pressure on each side of the orifice/seat is the same so that the net effect is zero change in IP as tank pressure decreases.

Traditional balancing involved having a piston stem or balance chamber the same diameter as the seating surface, but this did not take into account the (small but still present) area of the knife edge on the seating surface itself.

Overbalancing conseqeuntly is intended to address the problem that a knife edged hard seating surface in the first stage still has a certain amount of area. This small amount of area none the less can result in a slight change (a few PSI) in IP as tank pressure drops. So to correct for this in a piston reg, the piston stem diameter is slightly smaller than the hard seat diameter. This will produce a very stable IP with virtually no change in IP across the entire range of tank pressure and more consistent performance.

In the bigger picture balancing and to a lesser extent "overbalancing" allows the use of a larger orifice in the first stage which both improves flow rates and reduces the drop in IP upon inhalation. This equates to better raw performance in terms of air flow in high demand situations and less lag time overall which makes the reg feel better to the diver.

If you go really overboard with overbalancing and further reduce the diameter of the piston stem in a piston reg you would produce a situation where the IP increases slightly at low tank pressures. This would tend to reduce cracking effort on an unbalanced second stage at low tank pressures but would have little effect on a balanced second stage. It would make a non balanced second stage breath easier at low tank pressures than at high pressures, but only at the cost of increased cracking effort at higher pressures. Again in the end, there would again be no real benefit to this approach over using a properly tuned and adjusted balanced second stage in the first place.

It is true that a higher flow rate can be achieved with a higher IP, so over balancing to achieve a higher IP at low tank pressures with a balanced second stage could result in a slight increase in flow rate. However, if this were the situation I would suspect the flow rate as being a little marginal in the first place. Thsi would be one way to get better performance out of a mediocre reg at low tank pressures but a better solution would be to use a better performing first stage design in the first place.

So a small amount of overbalancing to achieve a truly balanced system in a high perfomrance first stage is a great idea. But a claim of anything beyond that is, in my opinion, just a marketing gimmic or perhaps a means to get marginally better performance out of a compact and/or medium performace first stage design that still will not be competetive with a higher performance design anyway.
 
DA Aquamaster:
Ambient pressure is ambient pressure and it just acts to increase the pressure exerted by the main spring to open the HP seat with the result that the IP increases by an amount equal to the increase in ambient pressure to balance the system.

IP in a first stage is determined by the pressure needed to balance spring force, the ambient pressure force and the down stream force of the air from the tank. The down stream force changes as tank pressure drops so balancing is used to ensure that the tank pressure on each side of the orifice/seat is the same so that the net effect is zero change in IP as tank pressure decreases.

Traditional balancing involved having a piston stem or balance chamber the same diameter as the seating surface, but this did not take into account the (small but still present) area of the knife edge on the seating surface itself.

Overbalancing conseqeuntly is intended to address the problem that a knife edged hard seating surface in the first stage still has a certain amount of area. This small amount of area none the less can result in a slight change (a few PSI) in IP as tank pressure drops. So to correct for this in a piston reg, the piston stem diameter is slightly smaller than the hard seat diameter. This will produce a very stable IP with virtually no change in IP across the entire range of tank pressure and more consistent performance.

In the bigger picture balancing and to a lesser extent "overbalancing" allows the use of a larger orifice in the first stage which both improves flow rates and reduces the drop in IP upon inhalation. This equates to better raw performance in terms of air flow in high demand situations and less lag time overall which makes the reg feel better to the diver.

If you go really overboard with overbalancing and further reduce the diameter of the piston stem in a piston reg you would produce a situation where the IP increases slightly at low tank pressures. This would tend to reduce cracking effort on an unbalanced second stage at low tank pressures but would have little effect on a balanced second stage. It would make a non balanced second stage breath easier at low tank pressures than at high pressures, but only at the cost of increased cracking effort at higher pressures. Again in the end, there would again be no real benefit to this approach over using a properly tuned and adjusted balanced second stage in the first place.

It is true that a higher flow rate can be achieved with a higher IP, so over balancing to achieve a higher IP at low tank pressures with a balanced second stage could result in a slight increase in flow rate. However, if this were the situation I would suspect the flow rate as being a little marginal in the first place. Thsi would be one way to get better performance out of a mediocre reg at low tank pressures but a better solution would be to use a better performing first stage design in the first place.

So a small amount of overbalancing to achieve a truly balanced system in a high perfomrance first stage is a great idea. But a claim of anything beyond that is, in my opinion, just a marketing gimmic or perhaps a means to get marginally better performance out of a compact and/or medium performace first stage design that still will not be competetive with a higher performance design anyway.

Wow! I had to stare for a few moments, read a few times and think for many times to figure out all the technical and comprehensive information that you're providing. Although, I'm a mechanical engineer in practice, but I'm begining to realize how little I know about regs. It's a HUGE world out there!! SO IS THE OCEAN!! Thanx a lot!

Calvin from Malaysia.

p.s. Enjoy your DIVE and you'll enjoy your LIFE!!

Cya! :11:
 
Is over balancing good anyway? Any advantages above the balanced?? Is it really a necessity?
 
The short version:

Some overbalancing is needed to truly balance the first stage by compensating for the area of the hard seating surface. This is a good thing and can produce an exceptionally stable IP that in turn can enable the second stage to produce exceptional breathing performance

Additional overbalancing to the point that the IP is boosted at low tank pressures tends to be a crutch to boost airflow at low tank pressures in mediocre performing regulators.

Ads pushing overbalancing are often the same ads pushing compact first stage size and there is a reason for this. A small first stage is nice, I suppose, but has little practical benefit and is not worth the cost that is usually incurred in terms of diminished flow capacity. Overbalancing helps things a bit at low tank pressures but does not solve the underlying problem and creates potential issues with second stage adjustment which is a bad thing.
 
Calvinator:
I was looking at the specs of regulators and came across a term "over-balanced". Could anyone tell me the difference between "balanced regulators" and "over-balanced regulators"? Be it technically, difference in how they perform, how the diver would feel, the ease of breathing through either one of those, their difference in performance..... etc., etc.

Thanx!

As used by Aqualung and Apex the term means that the IP (pressure in the hose between the stanges relative to ambiant) goes up with depth.
The reasoning is that as the air becomes more dense there is more loss due to friction in the system. The higher IP makes up for the higher friction of the more dense air and the breathing effort remains the same at 200ft as at 20ft.

I suspect this only matters if you dive to great depths. So far I've had my Apeks over balanced reg down to 100 feet and it seems to breaths indentically to how it breaths on the surface. I have no intent to test it at 200ft.

Note the 1st stanges "ballance two things. Tank pressure and abiant pressure. so in theory either could be "over balanced" so that is why I started off with "as used by..." There is no "scuba dictionary"

Now what will a diver "fee"?? The goal is that the diver will not notice anything at all. The reg should breate the same at any depth. In my very limited experiance (going only to 100 ft in a very low energy, swimm slow mode) I'd say "yes" I don't notice anything
at all.
 
For resitance to fluid flow, the term Viscosity is used. Viscosity of a gas increases with density, but also increases with temperature (for liquids, viscosity decreases with temperature). If one has a stable IP, then gas density as a function of pressure is constant, so effects of pressure on viscosity are constant. However, if the IP slightly increases, the available pressure differential at the second stage is slightly higher than at constant IP, which would yield a slightly higher available second stage delivery flow rate all other factors being equal, and really, increased viscosity (from the increased density resulting from the increased pressure).


I've noted that Scubapro is now using the term "overbalanced" for all their current balanced first stage offerings (everything but the MK 2 Plus). But, their use of the term is to emphasize a stable flow rate regardless of pressure differential across the first stage, until tank pressure closely approaches IP, and for claims of high flow rate achievable over a wider range of tank pressure vs. other designs. This looks more like what DA Aquamaster is referring to in terms of "slight overbalancing". And, if you look at Scubapro's advertising verbage for the MK 16, MK 18, & MK 20 froma few years ago (year 2000), the same claims for stable flow rate and high flow rate are made without use of the term "overbalanced" - merely the term "balanced". My personal take on this is Scubapro is using the same basic technologies (and now into the MK 25), but has changed their terminology slightly. Anyone know for sure?

http://www.scubapro.com/shared/asp/regulator_innovations.asp
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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