Out of Air on Descent

[TSandM]

I agree that verifying things by feel is important -- but I do it myself. One of the steps in the gear check that we do is to verify that the long hose is deployable -- we do it by deploying it and showing the deployed hose to our buddies. That's really the only thing like that. Everything else in the gear check is verifying that something is working, and we do that in concert and in the view of our teammates.

If I have a problem, as is not uncommon in the process of gearing up, I have no issues with saying to somebody -- and I mean anybody, as sometimes it's just someone standing near me who I don't even know -- "Can you see where this is caught, or tangled, or whatever?" But after they are done with helping me, I start over again and verify everything for myself. And heaven help the person who touches my tank valve or valves, buddy or no . . . unless I ask them to.

 

[doctormike]

Maybe someday I'll have a chance to take you up on that bet!

Absolutely! A win-win...

I am not sure how you have tied your knots, but I believe double fisherman's knots would be the standard way, at least that's how I did it. This allows you to pull the opening for the reg tight. I also have mine cinched very tight, so even if the reg hose was to snag (which would be difficult) the reg would not pull out unless you were scootering, it still comes out with a sharp tug if neccessary, and I cannot see, for the diving I'm doing, changing this setup.

Right, the double fisherman's knot allows the loop that holds the regulator to be adjusted but snug (that is, by pulling the knots apart, you can widen the loop). Mine is a little different, with the knots tied tightly, covered with glued plastic sheaths, that keeps the mouthpiece firmly in place (similar security to the technique of putting a zip tie around the knots):



So if you want to be able to pull the reg from the necklace, the double fisherman's knot works well. If you don't want it to be displaced even with a hard pull (say, if the hose gets snagged on something), then either the zip tie method or the method that I use would be appropriate.

We are certainly in agreement that a bungied necklace is a very good if not preferable way of keeping your regulator, secured and easily accessible, no matter if you dive backmount or sidemount, recreational or tec. In sidemount you do not have a primary and secondary regulator, both regs are "primary" as they are is only 1 2nd stage attached to each 1st stage for each tank.

That makes sense, I know nothing about sidemount, but I can see that you would definitely not want to have either 2nd stage permanently fixed to the necklace in that case.

Why would you donate the regulator from the necklace? Because as a technical diver you are always donating the reg in your mouth (IMHO should be in recreational as well, although it can be taught both ways), and that may be the bungied short hose. You know that the reg is working and delivering gas, and that gas is safe to be breathing at your current depth. Also the ooa diver may be going for the most obvious source of working gas which is the reg in your mouth. Practicing this way (donate the reg in your mouth) also prepares you to have reg out of your mouth for any number of reasons including ooa situations but also maybe some moron just kicked the reg out of your mouth, or you snagged your hose and pulled the reg out, or any other circumstance that you can imagine....

This IS different than backmount doubles (which I assume you are diving), where you are always breathing from your long hose and that is what gets donated, allowing you to go to your bungied backup. In sidemount, if you donate the short hose because that is what you are breathing, you would then switch the reciever to the long hose once both divers have gas and control of the situation.

Yes, absolutely - my previous comments would not apply to sidemount diving.

I am not confusing the OW releasable 2nd, but I think it more comes from your lack of familiarity with sidemount and potential issues that may arrise and how gear needs to be configured differently to deal with those issues. That said, I think the discussion is a good one, as SM becomes more common, you may one day find your self buddied with a SM diver and knowing what may differences you may be dealing with in an emergency can only be a good thing.

A permanently attached bungied backup works for you in BM, and I'm not saying that it will kill you by any streach, but is not the solution for everyone. A releasable solution also will not kill you. I agree as I stated above that there are advantages to even recreational divers learning to donate the reg from their mouth, long hoses, I think need either training or a mentor to show you how not to create more issues mainly around entanglement, but even for recreational diving, in some circumstances can certainly have some advantages.

Absolutely, more learning is always a good thing. But even if I was diving with a SM buddy, that wouldn't change the configuration of my own gear, right?

I didn't mean to imply that you were confused, just that the "permanent vs. quick-release" decision would depend on whether the rescuer was giving the OOG diver her primary or secondary 2nd stage. And with a short primary hose, donating the secondary might be easier. I was just suggesting that she consider the long hose primary donation configuration, which IMHO is better with the backup 2nd stage firmly gripped by the necklace.

Have fun and dive safe

Thanks, you too!

 

[MarkHerm]

When I did my OW dives one of the DMs gave my tank valve a 1/4 turn (at which point it hit the end of travel) and 1/4 back while I was waiting for my chance to enter the water. Of course I didn't watch them do it (my head doesn't swivel that far) but I figured out what they were doing by sound/feel. Was she wrong?

In my opinion, yes she was very wrong. After checking my valves and doning my rig, noone is supposed to manipluate my valves behind my neck and out of my sight without me clearly requesting it. I'd clearly communicated to her that she was not supposed to that and should never do this again.

 

[Them]

In my opinion, yes she was very wrong. After checking my valves and doning my rig, noone is supposed to manipluate my valves behind my neck and out of my sight without me clearly requesting it. I'd clearly communicated to her that she was not supposed to that and should never do this again.

I suppose that would be an interesting conversation - the student on one of his first OW dives confronting a dive master for doing what she probably thought was a reasonable safety check.

Obviously paranoia by itself is never wrong (though it can lead to wrong action), but I do wonder what experiences led you all to your chosen level of operational paranoia.

 

[TSandM]

Experience with people of varying competence in a wide variety of places will lead you to "operational paranoia". NOBODY touches my valves, unless I specifically ask them to do so. And if I ask them to do so, I will personally confirm the position of the valves before I dive.

When I was a brand new diver, I had a DM in Australia try hard to convince me to get in the water with a shut off tank, because neither of us could turn the valve knob so he assumed it was open. It was a very good lesson when I just plain refused, and some more tinkering proved it was, in fact, closed. (It could have been proven other ways; I was too green to think of them.)

I have read any number of stories of people who have had well-meaning dive staff shut their valves instead of open them, usually as they are standing in the gate preparing to jump (so of course, after all safety checks have been done).

My buddy can watch me check my stuff. I watch him. That's good enough for me.

 

[antattack]

One great thing about diving is the willingness of other divers to share experience. It is, after all, best to learn from other folks experience.

I think the OP did a good job taking care of a sticky situation. As I've accumulated experience, I've learned the value of descending SLOWLY. If I'm only a little negative, it's easy for me to swim up a bit in the water column without having to rely upon my BCD. I always seek to look cool in the water, and I look a bit more sporting when I drift down instead of plummeting into the abyss .

I'd never seen the octo bungied with a zip tie- that's in interesting way to do it.

When this happens again,and it will happen to someone, you get points for style if you can sort out the valve underwater. I had a playful training partner sneak up behind me during a pool session and turn off my air while I was interning as a dive master for OW students. (Huh? Is this shop regulator hard to breath or am I... Ugh... I'm in a pool, I can't be out of air, ascend, check SPG, check valve, check SPG, descend... Look for the scoundrel!)

You don't have to sort it out under water if you are in the shallows, but imagine how cool you will look to all the other divers when you sort it out and continue your dive.



Diving is the most fun when you look cool. I think you and your husband look pretty cool for sharing your experience and giving other divers a good demonstration of buddy work. Good stuff!

 

[MarkHerm]

I have read any number of stories of people who have had well-meaning dive staff shut their valves instead of open them, usually as they are standing in the gate preparing to jump (so of course, after all safety checks have been done)..

This is exactly what I've seen and experienced personally. Boat/dive staff with the best intentions sometimes turn your valve right before going in - after your own and your buddy check were performed beforehand. For obvious reasons, this is a very bad practice IMO.

 

[lv2dive]

This is exactly what I've seen and experienced personally. Boat/dive staff with the best intentions sometimes turn your valve right before going in - after your own and your buddy check were performed beforehand. For obvious reasons, this is a very bad practice IMO.

On the good news front - very specific, nicely worded requests to crew, to NOT touch valves, are typically respected. My preference is six-pack-type operations on which this is not an issue at all, but the few times I've dived off the larger boats in the last few years, I've not had a problem. Also, in addition to regular checks, especially when diving a single tank, I still take the three breaths looking at the SPG right before stepping off, just in case someone forgot my request.

 

[Them]

This is exactly what I've seen and experienced personally. Boat/dive staff with the best intentions sometimes turn your valve right before going in - after your own and your buddy check were performed beforehand. For obvious reasons, this is a very bad practice IMO.

I'm a bit taken aback by this.

1) Are you (or whatever diver receives this treatment) are using non-standard gear? So what looks open for you looks closed for 99% of the gear they see?

2) It is a way of griefing you that won't come back at them? ("I didn't change his valve! I thought it was closed but he jumped in before I could do anything! Honest!" Says the passive-aggressive crew member.)

3) Is it ever a smoke screen? As in the diver knows they made a mistake but doesn't want to look like an idiot in front of other divers so "somebody else did it" is the story they stick to?

4) Do you think the crew members sometimes just have honest homicidal intent?

5) Something else entirely?

It seems like a dangerous habit that the dive boat operators who want to avoid the hassle of bringing back dead (or angry) divers would train against. What am I missing?

 

[doctormike]

I still take the three breaths looking at the SPG right before stepping off, just in case someone forgot my request.

+1 for that. I do that as well...