Out of Air at 84 ft

[jbd]

I notice that I can hold my breath for quite some time if I am completely motionless but to kick 30 feet on one breath would be problematic and panic inducing. So, I would have a noisemaker of some sort that is never used for "hey look at this fish" but only for "come here now!" Then I would sit tight, make a racket, and have my buddy rescue me. Getting the attention of the buddy would be the first goal. A few people have mentioned lights but sound is the key. But then again if they are a lousy buddy to begin with by being so far away how do I trust they will immediately respond? (I normally have redundant gas so this is actually a hypothetical for me.)

See post # 76 by simbrooks. 30 feet is not really that far. I can easily cover that distance with 3 frog kicks. If my buddy or whoever is the potential air source is moving towards me then I will get the air even quicker.

This is part of what I teach during the OOA section of the OW class. One of the demonstration scenarios, with the student being the donor, is me swimming towards them after signalling OOA from a distance of 50 feet. I have them follow a similar scenario in which they are the OOA diver. During this scenario though we are swimming towards each other as soon as they signal OOA. They end up covering about 25 feet before the air sharing is established.

This all done in the shallow end and repaeted until they are comfortable with it. As the course progresses I spring a few surprises on them.

One thing that many people don't realize is what the actual distances are. Most homes in America have rooms that are 12 to 15 feet long. Take a look at that. Now envision you must cover that distance or the distance of two adjoining rooms. If nothing else lay out a tape measure on the ground and mark off 30 feet. Think about it. Could you swim that distance? Probably so.

Another thing, most people don't think they can go more than 10 seconds without taking a breath. Not true(excluding some diseases so lets not go there). I'm no specimen of excellent physical condition and I can exhale naturally and then hold that for 30 seconds with relative ease, so can most people.

 

[turnerjd]

Poor Pilot Fish !!!

The man asks a simple question.

All he wants are resolutions to the problem given.

He defines the scenario, albeit there could be a bit more description of the dive. I have to assume it is a recreational dive.

We've run the gamut from better pre-dive planning, better gas management planning, effective use of lights for communication and so on.

The stuff is now in the fan, what are you going to do. It's too late to discuss what one can do to aviod the situation.

As he stated in the beginning of his question, the hows and whys are irrelevant, what is your resolution to the problem at hand.

The answer is REALLY simple. Swim the 30ft to your buddy.

If you think you are physically unable to swim the 30ft then do a CESA. Once you get yourself to the surface you need to get yourself into the pool once or twice a week for a while and get yourself into shape. - Anybody in moderate physical shape should be able to do 25m/80ft breathold swim with EMPTY lungs.

Doing some swimming and breatholding diving in the pool regularly is about the best way possible to get your confidence up - and if you want to get a good score on things like the DM waterskills (800m swim??) test you need to do this. With the absolute minimum of training you can stay underwater for at lease a minute with your lungs empty.

A 25m/80ft swim underwater used to be part of basic OW training. I think that this was abandoned by PADI very early on. It still is part of the CMAS 1* course.

Why do it with your lungs empty??? because if you have a problem, you are most likely to find out when you breath out...... and subsequently try to breath in!

HTH

JonT

PS doing this has the added advantage that getting in shape does not need to cost very much, your air cunsumption should go down, and the wife* will aprove.
(* may be replaced by the correct gender specific noun)

 

[The Kraken]

Simbrooks wrote:
"There is far more to be learnt from this thread regarding buddying, air management and communication than to simply poo-poo it as not being the answer to the question."

If I seemed to indicate that I "poo-pooed" the answers, please forgive me for I had no intention of doing so.

I guess my error is that when a question is asked I always take the old course of "et ceterus paribus", all things being equal.

As the question was posted, I took it that the diver concerned was well trained in all aspects of diving to the level which he was trained and employed good and proper planning and management of his dive. But a situation arose, for whatever reason and by no cause of the diver, for which an action had to be taken.

My point was the divergence from the question asked.

I agree whole heartedly about the ability to learn from SB threads because of ancilliary information garnered from the responses.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

See post # 76 by simbrooks. 30 feet is not really that far. I can easily cover that distance with 3 frog kicks. If my buddy or whoever is the potential air source is moving towards me then I will get the air even quicker.

This is part of what I teach during the OOA section of the OW class. One of the demonstration scenarios, with the student being the donor, is me swimming towards them after signalling OOA from a distance of 50 feet. I have them follow a similar scenario in which they are the OOA diver. During this scenario though we are swimming towards each other as soon as they signal OOA. They end up covering about 25 feet before the air sharing is established.

This all done in the shallow end and repaeted until they are comfortable with it. As the course progresses I spring a few surprises on them.

I am sure this works great in a pool but 50 feet becomes much much longer when the vizibility is anything less than 50 ft. For that matter if your buddy is 11 feet away and you are in 10 foot viz and you are not sure what direction he/she is in, and/or if the buddy is moving also finding them in the time allowed is very problematic.

So the pool excercise in question is a great confidence builder but is it going to do much for anyone other than a tropical diver? It seems to me that stressing either self sufficiency and redundancy or buddy team integrity makes a lot mores sense.

 

[turnerjd]

I am sure this works great in a pool but 50 feet becomes much much longer when the vizibility is anything less than 50 ft. For that matter if your buddy is 11 feet away and you are in 10 foot viz and you are not sure what direction he/she is in, and/or if the buddy is moving also finding them in the time allowed is very problematic.

So the pool excercise in question is a great confidence builder but is it going to do much for anyone other than a tropical diver? It seems to me that stressing either self sufficiency and redundancy or buddy team integrity makes a lot mores sense.

Yes and no on this one DA - Yes this would pretty much only help the tropical diver, and no - somebody used to diving in 10ft vis should have no need for this as their buddy skills should be significantly better.

If your buddy is further away than the visibility limit then you should be on your way up anyway.... as you have lost your buddy. Anybody that regularly dives in 10ft vis or less (my last dive was probably 6ft vis) will in general have very good buddy skills, otherwise they would almost always lose their buddy.

Any type of extra pool training is good, especialls freediving/breathold diving, since it gives you confidence in the fact you are not going to die instantly, and consequently you are MUCH lest stressed if you have an OOA situation. This is something people should do even after then have finished their OW course.

JonT

 

[simbrooks]

That's tech diving, right? I'm speaking of rec diving. Don't know the setup you describe

Yes it is tech diving, that is why i am telling you not to even consider it as an option.

 

[miketsp]

The one thing that nobody covered (if I didn't miss it) is you have an OOA and your buddy is just a few kicks away, so you start towards him. And just as you're almost there this big turtle comes sailing by and your buddy automatically takes off at high speed to follow. Oh yes and vis is 30m+ so he never imagines you can't see him.
So now you have to do your CESA but starting exhausted.

 

[pilot fish]

[[[As the question was posted, I took it that the diver concerned was well trained in all aspects of diving to the level which he was trained and employed good and proper planning and management of his dive. But a situation arose, for whatever reason and by no cause of the diver, for which an action had to be taken]]]]]

Exactly. You understood my question totally. I was just interested, in this instance, in direction, not HOW the diver got into that situation. Up -CESA, or over to connect with diver 30 ft away?

I have seen an even split in direction

 

[Far_X]

Well, I had a brewing cup of tea go cold whilst reading this thread so I am going to contribute though it may be a repeat of what people have said before. 84 feet is not that far from the surface!! I know, as I prepare for DIR-F, that I can slowly swim 25m in a pool on one breath. If this is a rec dive, then you do not need to make a deco stop (that could be the reason why you are out of air - you didn't dive your plan and stayed down too long!!) and the 3 min stop is only a recommendation, I believe. If you are solo diving, you have contingency, your pony or your slung bottle. If you are buddy diving, you have contingency, your buddy. Solo divers don't drag their contigency on a 30 foot lanyard!! Buddy divers don't have contingency 30 feet away. It took some effort to get thirty feet away without anyone noticing. Is this at night? How strong is the current? How good is the visibility? I know I can make the surface from 84 feet without ascending too fast. Chances are, there may be divers do their safety stop on the way up also. I don't always know I can reach that spare air 30 feet away. So I would chose to ascend because I know that air is guaranteed on the surface, regardless of surface conditions. I must point out that the few deep dives I have done, my buddy has never been more than 5 feet away and I have dove with people I have just met before geting in the water! Diving in NY where the visibility isn't always great , this should be so instictive to you that I am suprised you have been subjected to the wandering buddy leaving the stationary diver routine!!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Exactly. You understood my question totally. I was just interested, in this incidence, in direction, not HOW the diver got into that situation. Up -CESA, or over to connect with diver 30 ft away?

I have seen an even split in direction

That's because there is no cut-n-dry correct answer to the question ... it depends on the situation ... can you see your buddy? ... can they see you? ... are they swimming toward or away from you?

To my concern, the most useful answer has been dismissed by many as irrelevent ... which I find somewhat disturbing. An attempt to answer your question directly amounts to validating irresponsible diving practices.

If you lack the skills to keep track of your buddy and your air supply, you shouldn't be diving to 84 feet. If you just have to go there ... lacking those skills ... get a redundant air source, and learn how to deploy it properly. Diving without one or the other is just asking for trouble.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Postscript - having a pony bottle isn't a guarantee that you will be safe either. I already know one person who died OOA with a full pony on his back because he didn't know how to deploy it.