GUE's 30/30 is often referred to as Ginnie Gas....
Ginnie is generally 90-100' & hi-flow. So the He can address some of initial stages of narc which might be exacerbated by exertion, as well as the breathing characteristics of a lighter gas.
Opinions Wanted: "Techreational" Trimix Diving
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GUE's 30/30 is often referred to as Ginnie Gas....
Ginnie is generally 90-100' & hi-flow. So the He can address some of initial stages of narc which might be exacerbated by exertion, as well as the breathing characteristics of a lighter gas.
JeffG
Contributor
never mind
He is mined and not recoverable from the atmosphere, we should not be using it unless there is a need. clear headed at 100ft? seriously I never had a problem with being so clouded at that depth that it made any difference on the dive for safety or enjoyment. it is obviously possible to dive to 190 on air and no I do not want to discuss it other than it is possible to do.
I will take your word for it that there is a large difference between 130 and 190ft of open water, I also was told there was a large difference between 60 and 130 and that only the AOW would qualify me to go to these dangerous depths without training.
I did not find that to be true and I did not find the one dive to 100ft in the AOW all that interesting or enlightening. ( I had done several dives to 100ft already but dont tell the scuba police).
I would like to see a course that covered the distance between Recreational diving and recreational deep diving (called tech). Ie cover the differences in the breathing gas, the differences in the tables, the deco schedules and tools, the gas switching and planning. the caveats with He, and the O2 issues. then have people do a few(10?) dives to say 150 or 170 with supervision. then maybe issue a temporary learners permit, where they must have full cert buddies, after 20-50 or so deep(140+) dives it converts to a full cert.
Why do we teach to the lowest common denominator. recreational tech is at most advanced diving and the people that do it can be screened for the badge collectors and the rest of us that take it seriously and have done our homework and more than 50 or so deepish Rec dives should be able to be given the tools to do it safely and set free. Do I really need to spend 3k on training to learn something that was learned by trial and error in the last 20ish years. I read the TDI books and learned nothing I did not already know, not picking on the TDI books, if I was straight out of OW with 20 dives they would have been a lot to digest. Dont we have to have 100 dives and basic nitrox to even consider the intro level courses? is it assumed we learned nothing in that time?
had my
and it did not help sorry for the rant. I am very interested in continuing on the Tech path after I finish my IDC, I sort of understand the go slow and pay your dues part of this, but I really could digest all I need to know about safely diving to 190 in one course, I have Spear fishermen that constantly claim to have been to 200ft regularly with no training at all (no need to express concern it is just a fact of life for them).
I will take your word for it that there is a large difference between 130 and 190ft of open water, I also was told there was a large difference between 60 and 130 and that only the AOW would qualify me to go to these dangerous depths without training.
I did not find that to be true and I did not find the one dive to 100ft in the AOW all that interesting or enlightening. ( I had done several dives to 100ft already but dont tell the scuba police).I would like to see a course that covered the distance between Recreational diving and recreational deep diving (called tech). Ie cover the differences in the breathing gas, the differences in the tables, the deco schedules and tools, the gas switching and planning. the caveats with He, and the O2 issues. then have people do a few(10?) dives to say 150 or 170 with supervision. then maybe issue a temporary learners permit, where they must have full cert buddies, after 20-50 or so deep(140+) dives it converts to a full cert.
Why do we teach to the lowest common denominator. recreational tech is at most advanced diving and the people that do it can be screened for the badge collectors and the rest of us that take it seriously and have done our homework and more than 50 or so deepish Rec dives should be able to be given the tools to do it safely and set free. Do I really need to spend 3k on training to learn something that was learned by trial and error in the last 20ish years. I read the TDI books and learned nothing I did not already know, not picking on the TDI books, if I was straight out of OW with 20 dives they would have been a lot to digest. Dont we have to have 100 dives and basic nitrox to even consider the intro level courses? is it assumed we learned nothing in that time?
had my
and it did not help sorry for the rant. I am very interested in continuing on the Tech path after I finish my IDC, I sort of understand the go slow and pay your dues part of this, but I really could digest all I need to know about safely diving to 190 in one course, I have Spear fishermen that constantly claim to have been to 200ft regularly with no training at all (no need to express concern it is just a fact of life for them).
What difference does it make to call it Deep Recreational vs. Technical Diving? Call it what it is "Trimix" and plan the dive and mix appropreately.
I am not the most highly trained "scuba" diver (i.e. no Tech certs here), but I do know enough to know diving hypoxic mixes at depths shallower than 100 feet sea water (fsw) is not a smart thing to do.
I do see the liability avoidance to doing the transitional or introductory versions of mix gas and deep diving courses by limiting the training diving to no deeper than 100 fsw to 130 fsw. But the O2% should never be outside the range that would be hypoxic or hyperoxic within the 0 fsw to the max training depth limit range.
I am not the most highly trained "scuba" diver (i.e. no Tech certs here), but I do know enough to know diving hypoxic mixes at depths shallower than 100 feet sea water (fsw) is not a smart thing to do.
I do see the liability avoidance to doing the transitional or introductory versions of mix gas and deep diving courses by limiting the training diving to no deeper than 100 fsw to 130 fsw. But the O2% should never be outside the range that would be hypoxic or hyperoxic within the 0 fsw to the max training depth limit range.
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Academics aside... I've always found the classes to just take the basics taught in OW up a level... Ideal gas laws havn't changed... but your application, appreciation and comprehension is fine tuned.
In a nutshell.... skills and drills break into the following steps....
Intro to Tech should introduce you to a BP/W setup, doubles, trim and real buoyancy control, shooting a bag, long hose.
AdvNitrox\Deco (Helitrox) gets you managing a single bottle.....
Entry Mix gets you managing two bottles...
Full Mix gets you either adding a 3rd, or having something hypoxic involved...
With gas discussions and dive planning happening all along the way....
I was amazed in the difference in mental clarity when I started doing Helium in the rec range of 90 to 120. So much so that I will not enter a wreck in the 100ft range without it. Being inside a claustrophobic wreck is challenging while slightly narced. Doing an air share or a valve drill under the same conditions is incredible stressful and panic inducing. Helium in rec depths has its place.
The theoretical knowledge you learned from the TDI material is a very small part of getting into technical diving. It's the practical aspects that you learn from in water training that is key.
Not everyone is the same but for me every 20 or 30 feet beyond 130 feet feels like another mountain peak to climb. My first 150 foot dive felt really deep! I still haven't gone past 190 because I don't feel 100% comfortable at that depth. The deeper you go the less your margin of error becomes. I think we should respect this.
The theoretical knowledge you learned from the TDI material is a very small part of getting into technical diving. It's the practical aspects that you learn from in water training that is key.
Not everyone is the same but for me every 20 or 30 feet beyond 130 feet feels like another mountain peak to climb. My first 150 foot dive felt really deep! I still haven't gone past 190 because I don't feel 100% comfortable at that depth. The deeper you go the less your margin of error becomes. I think we should respect this.
Blackwood
Contributor
Next to government/tech research and medical procedures, do you know the biggest use of Helium in the world? The friggin' Macy's thanksgiving parade floats.
I think if someone feels that their dive may be enhanced by 10CF of Helium, they should breathe it. It's hardly a waste, particularly in the relative sense.
Well there's your problem.
The TDI texts are not filled with unique, detailed information by any stretch of the imagination. But that may be by design (i.e. to get someone to take the class rather than just learn independently).
If you are really interested, try the IANTD books (eg Tek Lite). They're much more detailed, though the editing (if there was any) leaves a lot to be desired. GUE's text is pretty good as well.
FYI, courses like you described exist.
I have been diving a BP/w and long hose and have had good trim for the last 80 dives no course needed. I put on my doubles and went swimming, not much difference. I can hover at 12" off the bottom, turn, shoot an SMB and not stir up silt with doubles, no training other than youtube to show me what it was supposed to look like. splain me Lucy why I should pay $1200 for this course. I also read the free Navy manual and understand it.
I really need separate courses to know to read the labels on the bottles? or to follow my wetnotes on when to switch?
I need a course for all the theory and procedures on diving past 130 but it really does not change till I go past 190 and get into trimix.
only on topic comment: I might use trimix at 130ft but only if I was diving with a buddy with a rebreather.
Wow. Macy's should be shot.
otherwise agreed, with an eye on conservation of a depleting resourse.Lets just agree that it is one of my problems.
Please tell. My plan was to go to a local Tech instructor and have him custom make one for me.
You know, some of us LIKE classes. I like having someone do all the work of putting together a bunch of information in a readily digestible form. I like having someone of whom to ask my questions. I like having someone critique my diving and give me good suggestions for improvement. I'm quite sure I could have learned just about EVERYTHING I've learned in diving through experience, experimentation, reading and some mentoring, but it would have been a slower process and undoubtedly fraught with more hazards.
I do believe that the transition from a simple, undemanding shallow reef dive to staged decompression or overhead diving is not a discontinuous one, but a gradation, and it makes a lot of sense to make the transition in gear, skills, and most importantly in mindset, as a gradual thing. Learning to make accurate and stable stops, to shoot a bag, to keep a team together in midwater, and to execute emergency procedures calmly and competently at depth is a reasonable thing for anyone who is doing deep dives, on whatever mix. I know my Rec Triox class was primarily about skills and procedures, and although we got a lot of education on oxygen toxicity and a little on helium, gases were by no means the focus. My NAUI Helitrox class was ALL about problem-solving and keeping ones wits about one -- the actual education on helium was really a very few minutes, because there really isn't that much to know.
I have found helium very useful for me, for the dives in the sub-100 foot range, although I will admit to having pushed the time to a small amount of backgas deco on those dives. I sadly wish that I had been diving 30/30 in Ginnie last August; I think it would have helped.
I do believe that the transition from a simple, undemanding shallow reef dive to staged decompression or overhead diving is not a discontinuous one, but a gradation, and it makes a lot of sense to make the transition in gear, skills, and most importantly in mindset, as a gradual thing. Learning to make accurate and stable stops, to shoot a bag, to keep a team together in midwater, and to execute emergency procedures calmly and competently at depth is a reasonable thing for anyone who is doing deep dives, on whatever mix. I know my Rec Triox class was primarily about skills and procedures, and although we got a lot of education on oxygen toxicity and a little on helium, gases were by no means the focus. My NAUI Helitrox class was ALL about problem-solving and keeping ones wits about one -- the actual education on helium was really a very few minutes, because there really isn't that much to know.
I have found helium very useful for me, for the dives in the sub-100 foot range, although I will admit to having pushed the time to a small amount of backgas deco on those dives. I sadly wish that I had been diving 30/30 in Ginnie last August; I think it would have helped.
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