Opinions on BP& Wing (Looking to Upgrade)
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I suspect that rig with the 20 lb wing may have a hard time floating your gear on the surface with a steel tank.
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Unless travel diving in warm water using AL tanks I'd imagine 20lbs would be a little on the small size but without all information on your set up and diving conditions its only a guess. I much prefer the DR cam bands over the SP it might be user error but I've almost caught my fingers a couple of times using the SP, I like my fingers.
Hi all, thanks interesting comments. I am too looking for an upgrade. I am looking at wings but as always there are many options and would appreciate some assistance. I have been to my usual diving shop and i was shown the Apex WTX6R buoyancy cell and respective back plates. It does look good but i know no one who has one. I was also shown kit from an Italian company called Divesystem. Has anyone heard of the latter or used any of their kit? Cheers
This was basically my first bp/w set-up (except i have DR ali plate and normal rubber hoses). All of it still going in some form or another. my hog d-1 first stage and one classic second stage are now my stage regs. the other hog classic second is still in use on my twinset. my hog 32 wing is still in great condition, although hasn't seen much use since i moved to twins last year (still managed to put about 175 dives on it in 2 years though). My DR cam bands, same thing, still going strong, but haven't seen much use in the past year.
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[h=1]Product Review: HOG Regulators[/h] By Duane Johnson | Product Reviews
This summer I had an opportunity to test out the new Highly Optimized Gear (HOG) D1 cold water regulator. A dive store, who sells them, sent me a first and second stage and asked me to dive them for a while to give them my feedback on how they performed when compared to my Scubapro and Apeks regulators. If youve read a few of my other product reviews, youll know that I am very leery of new products unless they can solve a reoccurring problem.
[h=3]HOG Regulators My Initial Thoughts[/h]
The dive store sent me the HOG D1 cold water first stage with the 5th low pressure port on the end of the first stage and the standard HOG second stage. When I pulled them out of the box, my initial thought was they were Apeks clones. The body of the first stage looks pretty close to an Apeks DST first stage (minus the 5th LP port). Both first stages are the swivel style first stages. The HOG first stage has a plastic (delrin or some other kind) DIN handwheel. I had similar ones on my Apeks DS4 first stages that I replaced with brass ones after they broke after a year of use. So I wasnt impressed with the DIN handwheel. [h=3]Testing the HOG regulators on a Single Tank[/h]
When I put together my testing plan for this regulator, I wanted to compare it to the regulators that I already know quite a bit about. Those are the Apeks and Scubapro. Ill first start off by saying that I did not alter the intermediate pressure (IP) of the HOG first stage. On my Apeks first stages, I have tuned the IP to about 10-15 psi lower than the manufacturer suggests due to the cold water I constantly dive in. I first put this reg on one of my single tank rigs and took it to my local quarry for a few shallow water dives in the 20 to 50 foot range. Water temps were in the 50F range. I did four dives in one day and the HOG regulator performed equally to my Apeks in terms of work of breathing (WoB) and gas delivery. However, my Scubapro regulators have always had an easier WoB and gas delivery. The HOG did not perform the same as my Scubapro MK25 with G250 second stage. Scubapro wins hands down, even when compared to my Apeks. Hose routing was the same on the HOG as my Scubapro due to the 5th LP port on the end of the first stage.
[h=3]Testing the HOG regulators on Doubles[/h]
Next up I wanted to see how the HOG regulator compared to my Apeks on my double tank configuration. I put an Apeks on my backup post and the HOG on my primary post. With this setup, I was able to switch between the two regulators while on a dive. Water temps and depths were the same. Modified S-drills went OK. The valve drill is where the HOG regulator gave me problems. The HOG D1 first stage is about an inch longer than my Apeks DS4 first stages. The HP inlet pipe is in the middle of the first stage body. This means that when the regulator is on a tank in a horizontal or slightly angled position (like when on doubles), one end of the regulator sticks out and can interfere when trying to reach the valve handle. I found on every effort at performing a valve shut down, I either grabbed the first stage body or the first stage body didnt allow for easy access to the valve knob. I did notice a change on deeper dives. My Apeks regulators had an easier WoB and delivered a good volume of gas. I felt that with the HOG, I had to work slightly harder at breathing. Im not talking about anything extreme here. Just a slight difference. WoB is critical. If you have a high WoB, then carbon dioxide can build up and lead to blacking out.
[h=3]Testing the HOG regulators on Deco/Stage Bottles[/h]
Let me start this section off by saying that I do not like my Apeks DST first stage on a deco or stage bottle. I find that the first stage sticks out and interferes with access to the valve knob on the bottle. The HOG regulator had this same problem. Why is this a problem for me? I dive in very cold water (i.e. low 30s Fahrenheit). Free flows are a constant worry for us. When a free flow happens on a deco or stage bottle, we feather the valve. That is keep it turned off when we are exhaling, then slightly crack it open when taking a breath. When feather the valve on a deco/stage bottle, it is critical to be able to keep your hand on the knob. My Scubapro regulators do not stick out and interfere with the valve knob. [h=3]My Overall Thoughts[/h]
During my testing of the HOG regulator, I did 32 dives with it in moderately cold water. Depth ranges were from 20 feet down to 100 feet. I did not take the regulator into a more aggressive environment (i.e. deep tech dive or wreck penetration). Im very leery of taking new, untested gear on extreme dives. So I cant speak intelligently on how they perform at deeper depths. Overall, the HOG D1 coldwater regulator performed similar to my Apeks. There were slight differences that I noticed about WoB and position of the first stage. Otherwise, the HOG and Apeks were similar. When comparing the HOG to my Scubapro, there is no comparison. The Scubapro had an easeir WoB and gas delivery. The Scubapro also beat the HOG in first stage placement as the Scubapro doesnt stick out as far as the HOG and interfere with reaching a valve knob. The only down side to Scubapro is that they can free flow quite easily in very cold water. Which is why I use Apeks on my doubles and Scubapro on my deco bottles.
While the HOG regulator was fine, I cant justify replacing my Apeks and Scubapro regulators. The primary reason is that I can work on my Apeks regulators. Since the HOG and Apeks are very similar, I cant see spending a bunch of money on another regulator repair class for something that I already can do. HOG is the only company that allows their customers to learn how to rebuild the regulators, but it is limited to technical divers only. I havent looked at the course in great detail, so I dont know the specifics.
When I look online, Im seeing the HOG regulators being sold as a cheaper alternative to Apeks. I cant justify the cost of replacing my Apeks with HOGs. Especially considering that my Apeks have performed flawlessly for me in the eight years Ive owned them. There is nothing new or innovative about the HOG regulators. While the HOG regulators are cheaper than Apeks and Scubapro, if that is their only selling advantage, Ill pass. If you are looking for a cheap regulator to use in shallow depths, the HOG is fine. But if you are looking for a regulator with great work of breathing, then Id stick with Scubapro and Apeks.
alot of people like theese regs but if i had my choice of a hard working easy breathing reg id run Atomics, scubapro or Apex and Aqua lung
Yes if you buy hogs you can do the course to service them yourself but that is not cheap and tools etc etc
i dive 3-4 dives a day every day i run a dive rite ali plate and voyager wing without an sta, dive rites delux dgx custom harness and atomic tx2 reg aqua lung abs octo and single spg if i need more lift i switch to a rec wing irun standard braided hoses as aposed to trying to hang myself on long hose route thats my prefrence but the other gear is perfect it covers all the diving i need without going GUE or Hogarthian routes
i dive with different people at different levels and different atitudes and i dont go with you must dive with this and that and you must have this and not that etc my advise would be dont get trapped in certain regimes.
This summer I had an opportunity to test out the new Highly Optimized Gear (HOG) D1 cold water regulator. A dive store, who sells them, sent me a first and second stage and asked me to dive them for a while to give them my feedback on how they performed when compared to my Scubapro and Apeks regulators. If youve read a few of my other product reviews, youll know that I am very leery of new products unless they can solve a reoccurring problem.[h=3]HOG Regulators My Initial Thoughts[/h]
The dive store sent me the HOG D1 cold water first stage with the 5th low pressure port on the end of the first stage and the standard HOG second stage. When I pulled them out of the box, my initial thought was they were Apeks clones. The body of the first stage looks pretty close to an Apeks DST first stage (minus the 5th LP port). Both first stages are the swivel style first stages. The HOG first stage has a plastic (delrin or some other kind) DIN handwheel. I had similar ones on my Apeks DS4 first stages that I replaced with brass ones after they broke after a year of use. So I wasnt impressed with the DIN handwheel. [h=3]Testing the HOG regulators on a Single Tank[/h]
When I put together my testing plan for this regulator, I wanted to compare it to the regulators that I already know quite a bit about. Those are the Apeks and Scubapro. Ill first start off by saying that I did not alter the intermediate pressure (IP) of the HOG first stage. On my Apeks first stages, I have tuned the IP to about 10-15 psi lower than the manufacturer suggests due to the cold water I constantly dive in. I first put this reg on one of my single tank rigs and took it to my local quarry for a few shallow water dives in the 20 to 50 foot range. Water temps were in the 50F range. I did four dives in one day and the HOG regulator performed equally to my Apeks in terms of work of breathing (WoB) and gas delivery. However, my Scubapro regulators have always had an easier WoB and gas delivery. The HOG did not perform the same as my Scubapro MK25 with G250 second stage. Scubapro wins hands down, even when compared to my Apeks. Hose routing was the same on the HOG as my Scubapro due to the 5th LP port on the end of the first stage.
[h=3]Testing the HOG regulators on Doubles[/h]
Next up I wanted to see how the HOG regulator compared to my Apeks on my double tank configuration. I put an Apeks on my backup post and the HOG on my primary post. With this setup, I was able to switch between the two regulators while on a dive. Water temps and depths were the same. Modified S-drills went OK. The valve drill is where the HOG regulator gave me problems. The HOG D1 first stage is about an inch longer than my Apeks DS4 first stages. The HP inlet pipe is in the middle of the first stage body. This means that when the regulator is on a tank in a horizontal or slightly angled position (like when on doubles), one end of the regulator sticks out and can interfere when trying to reach the valve handle. I found on every effort at performing a valve shut down, I either grabbed the first stage body or the first stage body didnt allow for easy access to the valve knob. I did notice a change on deeper dives. My Apeks regulators had an easier WoB and delivered a good volume of gas. I felt that with the HOG, I had to work slightly harder at breathing. Im not talking about anything extreme here. Just a slight difference. WoB is critical. If you have a high WoB, then carbon dioxide can build up and lead to blacking out.[h=3]Testing the HOG regulators on Deco/Stage Bottles[/h]
Let me start this section off by saying that I do not like my Apeks DST first stage on a deco or stage bottle. I find that the first stage sticks out and interferes with access to the valve knob on the bottle. The HOG regulator had this same problem. Why is this a problem for me? I dive in very cold water (i.e. low 30s Fahrenheit). Free flows are a constant worry for us. When a free flow happens on a deco or stage bottle, we feather the valve. That is keep it turned off when we are exhaling, then slightly crack it open when taking a breath. When feather the valve on a deco/stage bottle, it is critical to be able to keep your hand on the knob. My Scubapro regulators do not stick out and interfere with the valve knob. [h=3]My Overall Thoughts[/h]During my testing of the HOG regulator, I did 32 dives with it in moderately cold water. Depth ranges were from 20 feet down to 100 feet. I did not take the regulator into a more aggressive environment (i.e. deep tech dive or wreck penetration). Im very leery of taking new, untested gear on extreme dives. So I cant speak intelligently on how they perform at deeper depths. Overall, the HOG D1 coldwater regulator performed similar to my Apeks. There were slight differences that I noticed about WoB and position of the first stage. Otherwise, the HOG and Apeks were similar. When comparing the HOG to my Scubapro, there is no comparison. The Scubapro had an easeir WoB and gas delivery. The Scubapro also beat the HOG in first stage placement as the Scubapro doesnt stick out as far as the HOG and interfere with reaching a valve knob. The only down side to Scubapro is that they can free flow quite easily in very cold water. Which is why I use Apeks on my doubles and Scubapro on my deco bottles.
While the HOG regulator was fine, I cant justify replacing my Apeks and Scubapro regulators. The primary reason is that I can work on my Apeks regulators. Since the HOG and Apeks are very similar, I cant see spending a bunch of money on another regulator repair class for something that I already can do. HOG is the only company that allows their customers to learn how to rebuild the regulators, but it is limited to technical divers only. I havent looked at the course in great detail, so I dont know the specifics.
When I look online, Im seeing the HOG regulators being sold as a cheaper alternative to Apeks. I cant justify the cost of replacing my Apeks with HOGs. Especially considering that my Apeks have performed flawlessly for me in the eight years Ive owned them. There is nothing new or innovative about the HOG regulators. While the HOG regulators are cheaper than Apeks and Scubapro, if that is their only selling advantage, Ill pass. If you are looking for a cheap regulator to use in shallow depths, the HOG is fine. But if you are looking for a regulator with great work of breathing, then Id stick with Scubapro and Apeks.
alot of people like theese regs but if i had my choice of a hard working easy breathing reg id run Atomics, scubapro or Apex and Aqua lung
Yes if you buy hogs you can do the course to service them yourself but that is not cheap and tools etc etc
i dive 3-4 dives a day every day i run a dive rite ali plate and voyager wing without an sta, dive rites delux dgx custom harness and atomic tx2 reg aqua lung abs octo and single spg if i need more lift i switch to a rec wing irun standard braided hoses as aposed to trying to hang myself on long hose route thats my prefrence but the other gear is perfect it covers all the diving i need without going GUE or Hogarthian routes
i dive with different people at different levels and different atitudes and i dont go with you must dive with this and that and you must have this and not that etc my advise would be dont get trapped in certain regimes.
I second the objection to long braided hoses -- they are a PITA to handle.
Why go with the DR plate and STA? If you are diving a single tank, the STA really gains you very little. It's useful for people who go back and forth between doubles and single tanks, and for people who need to put weight on their backs (if you don't mind making the rig harder to move around on land). Otherwise, it's another piece of gear to pay for.
Given the numbers you have mentioned, I think the 32 lb wing is ideal.
I have SPMK25/S600s on my doubles, only because when we changed to HOG regs, I had just had them serviced. Plan is to sell them when they next need to be done, and replace them with HOGs. I've been using HOGs on my singles setup and deco regs for two years. Although I love the SP regs, I cannot tell the difference between them and a properly adjusted HOG reg as far as breathing, down to about 120 feet. (Haven't had them deeper yet.)
Why go with the DR plate and STA? If you are diving a single tank, the STA really gains you very little. It's useful for people who go back and forth between doubles and single tanks, and for people who need to put weight on their backs (if you don't mind making the rig harder to move around on land). Otherwise, it's another piece of gear to pay for.
Given the numbers you have mentioned, I think the 32 lb wing is ideal.
I have SPMK25/S600s on my doubles, only because when we changed to HOG regs, I had just had them serviced. Plan is to sell them when they next need to be done, and replace them with HOGs. I've been using HOGs on my singles setup and deco regs for two years. Although I love the SP regs, I cannot tell the difference between them and a properly adjusted HOG reg as far as breathing, down to about 120 feet. (Haven't had them deeper yet.)
I have had my HOG's under the ice and down to 160 feet with no issues. I have customers using them to depths in excess of 300 and thousands of feet back in caves. And FYI that product review is three years old and there have been changes made to the regs. In case design on the seconds and the seat to improve they way it breathes and to the 1st stage seat material as well. They do not sit still and are constantly looking for ways to improve the product. So take Duane's opinions with that in mind. And I now personally own 11 HOG regs in various configurations.
On the HOG wings, I have four of them. A 23 lb travel, 32 lb singles, and 38 and 58 lb doubles wings. I may be selling the 58 as I am seriously headed towards sidemount for the steels I have that are larger than LP 72's. I just don't want to back mount heavy doubles anymore. And I am not selling my LP95's and 85's. They make great SM and single back mount tanks.
The HOG wings also have a ten year warranty against pinch flats thanks to the ballistic nylon bladder. They also come in at about $200 less than a ScubaPro wing and have an inflator that is easy for the user to service.
---------- Post added September 10th, 2013 at 05:34 PM ----------
You also need to understand that to a point ScubaPro will not allow him to be competitive on pricing. They have very stricj guidelines as to how much he can work with you. If he goes beyond that he can lose his dealership or be penalized in other ways. Draconian business model but not much he can do about it.
On the HOG wings, I have four of them. A 23 lb travel, 32 lb singles, and 38 and 58 lb doubles wings. I may be selling the 58 as I am seriously headed towards sidemount for the steels I have that are larger than LP 72's. I just don't want to back mount heavy doubles anymore. And I am not selling my LP95's and 85's. They make great SM and single back mount tanks.
The HOG wings also have a ten year warranty against pinch flats thanks to the ballistic nylon bladder. They also come in at about $200 less than a ScubaPro wing and have an inflator that is easy for the user to service.
---------- Post added September 10th, 2013 at 05:34 PM ----------
You also need to understand that to a point ScubaPro will not allow him to be competitive on pricing. They have very stricj guidelines as to how much he can work with you. If he goes beyond that he can lose his dealership or be penalized in other ways. Draconian business model but not much he can do about it.
- Messages
- 17,700
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Why would you "upgrade
Where are going with your diving?
He may or may not already have the "best" that's a little subjective however you saying as such being a SP dealer doesn't carry as much weight. Dealers always say their products are the best. Having said that there is no question that the S600 is a great reg, to the OP what to you hope to gain by switching to HOG? Other than the HOG possibly being more suited to cold water I doubt you'd notice any increase in performance moving to HOG, but hey it's your money I like to change gear often for no other reason than I like new toys. Good luck.
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