OK Now what am I to think

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chrisch:
This article suggests that Yo Yo dives are safer than no stop diving in the 15-30m range.
What the article is actually saying is that there is a lower incidence of DCI from yo-yo dives than from people who ride their NDL.

Riding your NDL refers to using your depth to keep your computer in no-stop mode for an extended period of time. For example, you go down to 80 feet until you computer gets close to 0 DTR, then you step up to 60' and your DTR goes up. As it gets close to 0 again you move up to 40', etc.

This type of diving is a great way to load up tissue compartments and does result in a high DCI incident rate.

No stop, in reguards to this article means it is not a decompression dive and has nothing to do with safety stops.

James
 
chrisch:
This article suggests that Yo Yo dives are safer than no stop diving in the 15-30m range. What is going on here???

http://www.divernet.com/news/stories/hse070604.shtml

Chris

Read the report. Here's what it says:

"Several short dives with SI are less likely to result in DCS than one long one to the NDL limit."

Why anyone would be surprised by that, I don't know.

"Yo-Yo" is NOT the same as sawtooth.

safe diving,

bullshark
 
The experience of Scotish Salmon industry divers suggest that yo yo dives are a bad thing. The NSL for 5m is more or less as long as you like, but some divers started to get DCI despite never going below 5m.
The ascent rate is the reason (AFAIK) and suggests that no stop limits are not something that can be added up cumulativley. This report suggests the opposite - that is the nature of my query...

Chris
 
Hey shows you how little we know about this stuff.

Decompression (all diving involves decompression) is not an exact science and the theory is constantly changing.

Of course the safest thing is to stay on the surface.

Thanks for pointing out the article.
 
Hello Readers:

Yo-Yo Dives and No-D Limits

In a world in which gas uptake was determined solely by an invariant tissue perfusion rate, you definitely would on-gas less during yo-yo dives. Let us look at a 60-fsw dive, say for sixty minutes. The NDL dive would have the diver descent, stay there, and then spend 60 seconds returning to the surface.

In this same given time period, for the yo-yo diver, some portion will be ascending and some portion will be on the surface. Depending on the number of yo-yo cycles in the sixty minutes, these portions can become a significant fraction of the total 60 minutes. Clearly one would on-gas less when part of the 60-minute “dive” was spent ascending and part on the surface.

Real World Might Be Differeent

The real world of diving might not have unchanging perfusion. In this case, we enter the realm that throws variability into the equation. If the diver sits in a hyperbaric chamber, the blood flow will not change much throughout the whole of the experiment. An actual diver in the water, however, might kick vigorously during the descent(s) and increase the blood flow considerably. During the ascent(s), the diver might not fin much and the blood flow would decrease - with reduced off gassing. Repeated vigorous descents would result in increased gas loading compared to the somewhat sedentary ascents. In this case, the yo-yo dive series would possibly be worse than the single NDL dive.

The vigorous fining could also result in the production of tissue micronuclei. These are the bad boys of diving and not always factored into a test program – unfortunately. :sprite10:

We have a situation where the field case and the chamber dives could be different. As has been mentioned many times in this FORUM, it is important that the dives are conducted in the same manner in which they were tested.

Dr Deco :doctor:

Readers, please note the next class in Decompression Physiology :1book:
http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/advdeco.htm
 
Poor terminology.

I think you should replace the "yo-yo" in the article with "square profile, tables dives with surface intervals".

Remember, in sport diving DCI is very rare but it does happen, sometimes in cases where we would think that the diver should have been safe.

What to do?
Learn good diving skills.
Stay hydrated.
Keep a safety margin in your dive profile.
Assume that if you have been underwater then DCI is *possible*.

Learn the 5 minute neurological exam.
Practice the 5 minute neuro with your buddies before and after diving.
If your buddy shows or mentions any signs of DCI do a 5 minute neuro on them.
If you even start to think that you have a symptom of DCI have your buddy do the 5 minute neuro on you.

If there are deficits shown in the 5 minute neuro then activate EMS and get treatment. Prompt treatment is the key to full recovery from DCI
 
Dear Readers:

A very noteworthy report however, one would need to read the actual HSE computer model report of Dr. Flook before considering a specific recommendation. It is very specific and her conclusions are proportionately less applicable past 60'. In Dr. Flooks' model, most comparisons are done to ~< 50', where the NSL is ~ 80 min {PADI RDP}, with proportionately better results the shallower the dives are.

I wholely support Dr. D's position on the current recommendation that yoyo diving, which is diving ... bottom time ... and fully surfacing, SIT then diving again, is risky practice generally speaking {FYI a sawtooth profile does not break the surface but what is most important in both profiles is relative changes in pressure and depth-time spent before surfacing}.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrhtm/rr214.htm

At this time I have not had time to read the paper and dissect the extensive details.

Dr. Flooks' own conclusions provides a far different perspective than the news article. In general, what is new is that her model parameters suggests a window of safety in the 30-40' range were yoyo diving maybe safer than spending a continuous 40' dive to NSL.


5.0 CONCLUSIONS
The diving considered in this report is all to relatively shallow depths and it may be incorrect
to extrapolate these conclusions for diving at greater depths. Examination of Figure 10 shows
that not only do the quantitative results changing as depth increases so too may the qualitative
conclusions. Figure 10 shows how the temporal pattern of bubble formation in the brain
changes as depth increases. For even deeper diving, deeper than 30 msw, it may be that the
surface interval has so little effect on total gas load that yo-yo diving is no different from
diving the envelope. That being said it may be that deep yo-yo diving is never an attractive
option as the allowed bottom time become shorter and the distance to be travelled increases.
One conclusion that can be drawn for all depths is that No-D diving puts the brain at particular
risk. The rates of ascent though generally slow enough to protect the faster tissues are not
slow enough to protect the brain. In general the accepted No-D tables do not protect the brain.
A second conclusion that can be drawn for all depths is that tables drawn up for repet diving
to not take into account the way in which the presence of bubbles slows down the removal of
gas from the body. Though not a major part of this report this aspect of decompression is
touched on in discussion of the profiles shown in Figure 7.
These two conclusions lead the author to believe that dive computers currently in use may not
be suitable as a means of determining safe yo-yo diving procedures.
The main conclusions from this work are that yo-yo diving of the type traditionally practised
in fish farm diving can be very safe and that dividing the total bottom time into several shorter
dives alternating with a surface interval is less of a risk than diving the envelope.
Though, as far as we have the requisite knowledge, it seems that for the depths covered in this
report bubble formation in the brain does not reach levels which can be said to be dangerous,
once bubbles form there is a random element to the risk. For some individuals, on some
occasions, one bubble in the wrong place can lead to severe consequences. This is what
makes bubble formation in the brain a particular concern. This reasoning would strengthen the
conclusion that several shorter dives, with less time for gas uptake in the brain, could be a
much better approach than a single long dive. If the pattern of diving can be such that the brain
clears its gas before the end of the subsequent dive then the risk of a single bubble growing
large enough to cause trouble is greatly reduced.
 
Saturation, thanks for the response and the link - I'll try to get time to read it too. As to the from-the-hip half-witted remarks of some others I suggest a reading lesson.

Chris
 
OK, I've read the thing and have to accept some of it is a little beyond me. The references cover stuff I haven't read so some caution needed.

As far as I can see the main thing of value to the sports diving community is about ascent rates. The divernet article is way off (see below) and cites the PADI RDP, although the report does not mention either PADI or DSAT (the table's author). Furthermore the "training agency" is unnamed. The ascent rate given is 15m/m which (given the UK nature or the report) suggests BSAC not PADI. Neither the BSAC88 nor PADI RDP give a no stop of 24m at 30msw however..

I am more convinced (if that were possible) that the current view by the so-called "tech" agencies that an ascent rate (certainly in the last 20m) of 6m/m is a better rate. This also reinforces the need for a safety stop.

Chris.

Divernet is the online version of Diver magazine (IMHO not a very good magazine) that used to be the official mag of BSAC. BSAC and Diver (owned by Bernard Eaton at the time not sure now) "fell out" at some point and BSAC now have their own mag and Diver cut its ties. I have not read Diver in some time, but it doesn't seem to have gotten better. BSAC's "BSAC Dive" isn't up to much either...
 
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