O2 clean tank question

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Thezeker

Contributor
Messages
83
Reaction score
25
Location
Vero Beach, FL
# of dives
200 - 499
I am fairly new to the nitrox thing and I have a question regarding o2 clean tanks.

Currently my tanks are not o2 clean. When I want nitrox I get banked nitrox. My local lds in Vero Beach, FL does pp filling for nitrox so I would have to get them o2 cleaned if I want nitrox. If I did they would give my a sticker saying the tanks are o2 clean. After their cleaning there is nothing preventing me from going to Joe's filthy dive shop and having non o2 clean air in my tanks then return to Vero Beach to have them filled by pp.

So at that point the o2 clean sticker is more of a liability protection for the lds than anything else. I.E. I was the one who screwed up the tanks by filling them with non o2 clean air and representing them as o2 clean. So if anything goes wrong it is my fault.

Not that I am planning on doing this but I was just thinking about it since when my tanks get their vip this summer I figure I would get them o2 clean. (There are no shops locally that have banked nitrox).

Thanks for any input.
 
So you want to take a nitrox tank and fill it with air, then fill it with nitrox again? First, before you go screwing with the system in place, get a number of nitrox dives under your belt then start playing. I'd say after the air, fill with 36%, but expect only 32% out of the fill, then test it to be sure and reprogram your computer or redo your calculations after. I don't think filling with air ruins the oxygen clean property of the tank, but then I'm not exactly sure what your question is either.
 
So you want to take a nitrox tank and fill it with air, then fill it with nitrox again? First, before you go screwing with the system in place, get a number of nitrox dives under your belt then start playing. I'd say after the air, fill with 36%, but expect only 32% out of the fill, then test it to be sure and reprogram your computer or redo your calculations after. I don't think filling with air ruins the oxygen clean property of the tank, but then I'm not exactly sure what your question is either.
My question is a bit esoteric. What I was trying to get at was what is the function of the o2 clean sticker? Is it mainly liability protection for the dive shop?

For example, you own a dive shop. You do not have banked nitrox just partial blending. I come in and have my tanks o2 cleaned and filled. Two months later I walk into your shop and want a nitorx fill. Now in that two months since you o2 cleaned my tanks you have know idea of what I have been doing with those tanks. They could be contaminated with oil or other stuff, you have no way of knowing. Yet there is a sticker on the tanks saying they are o2 clean.

For arguments sake lets say I got my tanks filled with air somewhere else during that two month since i have been to your shop. During that fill some oil got into the tank. Regardless if i went to a shop that claimed their air was o2 clean and there was an error or I chose to go to a shop that used air that wasn't o2 clean, there is still oil in my tank.

So you start filling my tanks with pure oxygen when there is a fire/explosion. The shop is destroyed and you are injured plus an employee of yours is killed. Tragic. Yet those tanks had an o2 clean sticker on them....from you.

And that goes back to my original question of what is the function of that sticker. Once the tanks have left the shop after the inspection the sticker can't guarantee anything. So in my mind the function of the sticker is on of liability foe the dive shop. I come in with my tanks with that sticker on so I am representing them as o2 clean thus I am liable for the accident.

I realize this is a legal/liability question rather than a tech question. I couldn't figure where else to post it.
 
In short ...... O2 over 40% becomes a potential dangerous gas to work with. O2 is a very flammable gas and under pressure it can and will ignite when in contact with contaminants .

O2 clean means that the equipment is free of any dirt, grease or any other particles that could cause the gas to ignite. I would not be too concerned as the max EANx you are allowed to use in recreational Nitrox will not exceed 40%. This is something you should have been educated on in your Nitrox certification.

Remember that if you have O2 clean equipment and you use air on it the equipment is no longer O2 clean!!!!!

With regards to your question on being liable for accidents when filling none clean O2 equipment, think your are OK. The blender will not fill your tank without your Advanced Nitrox certification, and maybe O2 clean paperwork. Hope this helps!!!
 
O2 is a very flammable gas...

That is untrue.



Remember that if you have O2 clean equipment and you use air on it the equipment is no longer O2 clean!!!!!

That is untrue as well.



To answer the question OP, Yes. There is no reason the shop will re-verify the tanks are o2 clean. You are entirely on your own. It's just a sticker.

If you were to dip the entire valve in WD40 and then head to the dive shop no one would know but you.

Putting air in the tanks is just fine as long as it is what is know as "Clean Air". The compressor has been designed specifically to provide air that is 100% O2 clean.

Plenty of shops pump dirty air and that will put you right back where you started.
 
Thezeker.
You hhave a very valid question and concern.
Awhile back I went to a seminar that discussed that and other O2 topics. The presenter told us that from extensive testing in the field (not lab) they have found that using grade E air is not a problem. Grade E is not hyperfiltered or as it is known as O2 compatible air. Will he defend your actions in court ? No. But it is done daily.
I PP blend my gasses and O2 clean yearly. It's a lot of work but stacks the deck in my favor.
I know of a guy that will PP fill any tank to make trimix or nitrox. It can be done . It is done. Daily. Would I ? No.
The biggest thing with O2 is keeping it cool. If the O2 goes in very slowly to keep things cool it can be done.
I'm not condoning any of this but it goes on. Evry cylinder that gets filled might be the one, blending or otherwise. You never know. The incidence is very low.
Even with O2 clean cylinders I have a very fine needle valve that puts the O2 in slower than recommended. I flow Helium even slower because it heats up so quickly. I plan ahead for my blending so that I don't have to rush anything. This isn't always practical in dive shops. Banking nitrox is the best thing that ever came since nitrox came along. It just makes life safer and easier.
This may not have answered your question but it is what goes on. If a stranger brought me a cylinder that had an O2 sticker on it for PP nitrox I would do it mega slow. But I only do my own fills so I don't have to be concerned about that.
I boost O2 to 3000 psi in my deco bottles and do it very slowly. I pull up a chair and just relax and wait.
If possible for the sake of your own conscience , when filling O2 cylinders with air ask for O2 clean , or hyperfiltered air. Most likely the typical dive center won't have a hyper filter. They run $1,500 to $3,000. The location of your shops sounds like the biggest dilema.
That's why I have my own compressor, banks, O2 booster, argon booster, etc., etc.

Good luck.
 
So you want to take a nitrox tank and fill it with air, then fill it with nitrox again? First, before you go screwing with the system in place, get a number of nitrox dives under your belt then start playing. I'd say after the air, fill with 36%, but expect only 32% out of the fill, then test it to be sure and reprogram your computer or redo your calculations after. I don't think filling with air ruins the oxygen clean property of the tank, but then I'm not exactly sure what your question is either.

I would avoid this advice as well.

You are certified for whatever mix you deem to be proper for the dive up to 40%. Many times that will be air.

Also, the idea of "expecting" a certain mix and then calculating the dive based on whatever it analyzes out to is counter to your training.

Plan the dive. Get the proper mix for that dive. Do the dive as planned.
 
In short ...... O2 over 40% becomes a potential dangerous gas to work with. O2 is a very flammable gas and under pressure it can and will ignite when in contact with contaminants .

O2 clean means that the equipment is free of any dirt, grease or any other particles that could cause the gas to ignite. I would not be too concerned as the max EANx you are allowed to use in recreational Nitrox will not exceed 40%. This is something you should have been educated on in your Nitrox certification.
That's a little too short.

1. O2 is, obviously, an oxidizer and it will cause most materials to burn given a high enough partial pressure and a high enough ignition temperature. But it is a bit much to suggest it will spontaneously combust in contact with "contaminants". That is only going to happen if the ambient temperature is over the ignition temp of that particular "contaminant" when exposed to a high enough percentage of O2 under sufficient pressure. You still need an ignition source.

2. Many people will argue that anything over 23% requires O2 cleaning and that is not incorrect depending on what you expect the item to come in contact with. On the other hand, many shops have been doing banked fills of 36% to 3000-3500 psi for years with no ill effects. 3500 psi is 246 atmospheres absolute, and the PPO2 of 32% is 78.72. For plain old air it is still 51.66.

In contrast a partial pressure fill of 665 psi of 100% O2 needed to get a 36% fill in a 3500 psi tank will have a PPO2 of only 46.23.

What that means in the real world is that unless you coat you tank with 10W-40 motor oil, it is probably clean enough already.

3. O2 compatible gasses have a lower level of contaminants, and most specifically lower levels of hydrocarbons. The key here is lower levels not zero levels. So even if you perfectly clean the tank in a NASA clean room it gets a bit less clean on the very first fill with "O2 clean" gasses and it gets less clean with each successive fill. This is where the argument presented in number 1 and 2 saves everone's bacon. As noted above, regular Grade E air may potentially have higher levels of hydrocarbons, but its a difference in degree and one that has not been problematic in service on gasses with O2 contents under 40%.

4. Scuba valves are not designed for O2 service. They have flow paths that often have sharp bends, the valves often have sead spaces where moving gasses may come to a sudden stop and or be rapidly compressed and all of the above can generate heat. If you are not careful it can generate enough heat to cause ignition of any contaminants in the valve.

So, I think there is a great deal of need to keep your valves as clean as possible, but I see very little need to worry excessively about the tank itself.

That said, cleaning a tank is quick and easy. For my steel tanks, I'll give them a quick tumble to remove any flash rust, clean the threads carefully, tumble them some more with a cleaning agent (Blue-Gold or Simple Green Crystal) then thoroughly rinse and quickly dry them to avoid any flash rust. The whole process takes less than a half hour start to finish and you can do several tanks in an assembly line process with a tank at each stage of the process.

Cleaning the valve itself takes as much time as the tank, but it is 100% work rather than mostly waiting for the tank to tumble or dry. The irony here is that I suspect some shops do a pretty good job cleaning the tank, but more or less ignore the valve.

What bothers me even more is that many shops charge the customer through the nose for this process and the cost gets prohibitive if the customer has multiple tanks.

Now, that all relates to the OPs original question in this way:

It's absolutely correct that an O2 clean sticker means nothing once the tank leaves the building. Ideally, most shops have "air" that meets O2 compatible standards so an air fill is no big deal. If a shop's air does not meet that standard, they should refuse to fill a tank with an O2 clean VIP sticker on it (I think the nitrox bumper stickers are a complete and total waste of time and mean less than nothing). Theoretically, if you need the gas, then they need to remove the sticker, VIP the tank and place their own VIP sticker on it and they need to let you know that up front. But in the real world that does not happen.

It gets more complicated as some shops may stick blend with a compressor and filter system that does not produce comprssed air that meets O2 compatible standards (but hopefully grade E stnadards). In that case you are getting a nitrox fill, but may not realize you are again un-doing the O2 clean status of the tank and they probbaly won't tell you that.

So...the shop insisting on O2 cleaning as they partial pressure blend, needs to get with the program understand the flaws in that system. Unless they are the only shop supplying gas for miles around, or unless all the other shops in the area have O2 clean gasses, they are going to have cross contamination issues and the sticker really means nothing.

Where your liability may come into play is when they ask you if you have had the tank filled anywhere else other than their shop. If you lie and something happens, you could be liable. From their persepctive however, they need to assume you are lying and fill very carefully with very slow fill rates to avoid potential ignition sources on the assumption that the tank is not perfeclty O2 clean. Again this is where numbers 1 and 2 above tend to prevent accidents even with 100% O2.
 
Also, the idea of "expecting" a certain mix and then calculating the dive based on whatever it analyzes out to is counter to your training.

Plan the dive. Get the proper mix for that dive. Do the dive as planned.
There is nothing wrong with that approach. Or more correctly, getting the proper mix may just mean ending the dive with the proper psi needed to top with air to get the desired mix or draining or filling the tank to the proper pressure before topping with air.

For example, let's say my last dive today was on 32% and I want to do a deeper dive tomorrow with 25%. With a gas blending app (on a palm, laptop etc) I know that if I start with 1200 psi of 32% and top with air I will get the 25% I want, leaving me ready to go tomorrow with nothing more to do than verify the gas with an analyzer.
 
I am fairly new to the nitrox thing and I have a question regarding o2 clean tanks.

Currently my tanks are not o2 clean. When I want nitrox I get banked nitrox. My local lds in Vero Beach, FL does pp filling for nitrox so I would have to get them o2 cleaned if I want nitrox. If I did they would give my a sticker saying the tanks are o2 clean. After their cleaning there is nothing preventing me from going to Joe's filthy dive shop and having non o2 clean air in my tanks then return to Vero Beach to have them filled by pp.

So at that point the o2 clean sticker is more of a liability protection for the lds than anything else. I.E. I was the one who screwed up the tanks by filling them with non o2 clean air and representing them as o2 clean. So if anything goes wrong it is my fault.

Not that I am planning on doing this but I was just thinking about it since when my tanks get their vip this summer I figure I would get them o2 clean. (There are no shops locally that have banked nitrox).

Thanks for any input.

There has been a lot of good technical information presented to you and represented to you.

To sort of answer you're question. My tanks are O2 clean. My LDS does pp blending. When I travel or take my tanks elsewhere that doesn't do pp blending, I simply re-clean them.

If you really want to understand more of what has been presented here, check out the following book.

Vance Harlow's OXYGEN HACKER'S COMPANION From AIrspeed Press
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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