Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[Wookie]

I believe most of us agree with this philosophy.

Where I differ is the level of perceived danger in the pool with a family member (grandfather perceived as a horrific person because he did not say the magic words and does not have 5000+ dives of professional experience). There are pros and cons to both sides and no one side of this discussion is correct. However I can only express my opinion - since this is Scubaboard - my opinion is I would not go back to that LDS under any circumstances and I would find an alternative shop to do business and go get a tank so my grandkids can have some grandkid type fun this summer...

And some parents in the Baltimore area get arrested multiple times for raising "free range children". I can find you the article if you haven't seen it. It's a fine line between protecting the kiddies and being a busybody, but as I say, Tammy is in the position here to do what she feels is right in her personal as well as professional capacity, and damn the consequences. You and I might not go back to that shop.

Businesses get to pick and choose their customers. Not all businesses are appropriate for all customers, and that is a business decision on the business owner's part. I hope the owner of Tammy's shop backs her up, and if Tammy's philosophy and the shop owner's philosophy don't match up, they can work it out amicably, but I would expect that Tammy knows how the shop owner runs his business, and she was in line with his wishes.

 

[boulderjohn]

I know the risk isn't zero. And I would trust myself before I would trust an instructor with a family member in a back yard pool. I think everyone should be trained to dive but people shouldn't fear monger that learning to do some scuba skills in your pool is a death sentence. I would never let a kid just go with an instructor without doing some pool checks on them first. But it's useless arguing with Internet divers anyways.

No one has said it is a death sentence. I have repeatedly said there is not that much risk, but there is a risk.

According to your profile, you have been certified for 5 years, but you provide no other details. I am glad that in your 5 years you have accumulated enough knowledge and experience to be more skilled than instructors and to insult me and others in this thread with your repeated accusation that we are "Internet divers." Insulting your opposition is not usually considered a valid form of argumentation. You should try the valid forms before resorting to mockery. You may find it more effective. By the way, some of the people in this thread have been in the water a few times.

I came from a background of other extreme sports, such as rock climbing and skiing among other things. One big difference I've noticed between scuba diving and other sports is that scuba diving has a huge focus on training. Most of the people I talked to before I got into skiing said that while lessons help a lot they are necessarily necessary. Scuba diving seems to be the only thing I've done where everyone screams at your face if you aren't certified.

In which of those sports is it possible to do the equivalent of dying after swimming a distance of 4-5 feet in your family pool?

Again, it is highly unlikely that anything will happen in this case, but you cannot dismiss the possibility.

---------- Post added June 18th, 2015 at 09:17 AM ----------

You made the right call, again- PADI, your insurance company, and your dog loves you That is indeed worth a lot.

Just as a minor correction, Tammy's agency is SSI, not PADI.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I believe most of us agree with this philosophy.

Where I differ is the level of perceived danger in the pool with a family member (grandfather perceived as a horrific person because he did not say the magic words and does not have 5000+ dives of professional experience). There are pros and cons to both sides and no one side of this discussion is correct. However I can only express my opinion - since this is Scubaboard - my opinion is I would not go back to that LDS under any circumstances and I would find an alternative shop to do business and go get a tank so my grandkids can have some grandkid type fun this summer...

Opinion noted. I assume you have no interest in persuading others to validate your opinion.

My opinion is that I like the way this dive shop thinks, regardless of whether they made the "right" decision under the circumstances. I'd be glad to patronize that shop.

 

[redacted]

For what it is worth, as the service technician & and an instructor at the shop, it was a long obsolete brand & No we do not have the parts to service it & no, do I have the skills or comfort level to work on it. Whether you think it is by design or just is what it is, I'll leave up to you. It very well may be serviceable with the proper parts & with someone with the proper skills.

I fully understand your refusal to service the customers regulator; but do you think you would have been able to service it if it were your regulator? Most older 2nds are a classic downstream design and aftermarket parts can be found or newer regulator parts will do the job just fine. An old BD 1sts my be more of a problem finding an HP seat that will work but aftermarket seats as well as modern reg parts may well still work. But I do agree, this may be not the way for a scuba shop to service a customer's kit. I wonder if a local car dealer's shop would work on a 40 Y/O model of their brand??? I suspect this is just another scuba detractor. Really a shame when most regulators are probably more durable than most automobiles.

One other question: Do you really think you have successfully prevented the grandfather from affording his grandchildren a scuba experience or are you simply content in the knowledge that you did not facilitate an unlikely but potentially severe accident?

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Opinion noted. I assume you have no interest in persuading others to validate your opinion.

Nope - but that is what makes America great. Opinions and $$$ make companies expand and contract all the time.

I am not spearing Tammy - I hope that is not the message I have sent. But I would not spend a single penny in that shop...

What makes scubaboard great and dangerous - is that you can get caught only agreeing with similar viewpoints - I try to analyze as best I can before I speak but I certainly have strong opinions that are all mine and I am not trying to sway anyone to my viewpoint.

I tell my kids all the time - "It is a good think I am not King - because if I was there would be a whole lot of changes going on!"

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
I am not spearing Tammy - I hope that is not the message I have sent. But I would not spend a single penny in that shop...
. . .

Call me obtuse, but I see your comments as conflicting with each other. You say you're "not spearing Tammy," but you "would not spend a single penny in that shop" and you apparently want everyone to know you feel strongly that it isn't necessary to have extensive experience teaching scuba or teaching children scuba ("have 5000+ dives of professional experience") to do what the grandfather wanted to do. I get it, but from your strong words (is "5000+ dives" a bit of hyperbole?) I also get the feeling you would like people to agree with you. This is clearly one of those debates that should end in "agree to disagree."

 

[redacted]

Call me obtuse, but I see your comments as conflicting with each other. You say you're "not spearing Tammy," but you "would not spend a single penny in that shop" and you apparently want everyone to know you feel strongly that it isn't necessary to have extensive experience teaching scuba or teaching children scuba ("have 5000+ dives of professional experience") to do what the grandfather wanted to do. I get it, but from your strong words (is "5000+ dives" a bit of hyperbole?) I also get the feeling you would like people to agree with you. This is clearly one of those debates that should end in "agree to disagree."

I think it is fairly clear that Tammy is only doing what her shop expects. And her shop is probably fairly typical. That is, Scuba Shop / Scuba Police Station.

Can you imaging a car stopping at a gas station with a child not in a child seat and the station refusing to sell the driver gas??? And that is actually involves an illegal act rather than just not endorsed by some training agency.

Their shop, their rules. I would opt to spend my $$$ elsewhere. Not an attack on Tammy. Just a fairly common detractor of Scuba gear and training retail operations.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Call me obtuse, but I see your comments as conflicting with each other. You say you're "not spearing Tammy," but you "would not spend a single penny in that shop" and you apparently want everyone to know you feel strongly that it isn't necessary to have extensive experience teaching scuba or teaching children scuba ("have 5000+ dives of professional experience") to do what the grandfather wanted to do. I get it, but from your strong words (is "5000+ dives" a bit of hyperbole?) I also get the feeling you would like people to agree with you. This is clearly one of those debates that should end in "agree to disagree."

Ok - Anyone is able to believe and value what they want - I am not in charge and I am not here to dissuade anyone from that opinion - including yours. But since we call this a social board - others get to express their opinion as well. So my opinion is Tammy has that right to do as she pleases (with or without her bosses consent) - she is an employee of that company and as such represents that company - and I as a consumer have the right to disagree with any company and chose to spend my money elsewhere. I do not have to confront Tammy, her company or her beliefs - it is not my company and I have very little to no loyalty to that company - especially since I have not shopped there. But if that company has the philosophy to tell others what they can and can not do - I will chose to spend my money elsewhere. For me this is an easy one - I don't like the policy and I will go somewhere else.

At the very beginning I was not going to call it out but now I will mention it. At no point did I or Grandpa say we are teaching anyone that implies expertise. Tammy said "Teaching" and she was wrong in that implication but that was her understanding of what Grandpa wanted to do. Playing with Scuba gear in a pool is not teaching someone how to dive. I did not teach my kids in my pool how to scuba - I allowed them to experience a fun and pleasant scuba activity under adult supervision. This is not earning them a spot for OW Certification - this is allowing them to dabble with Scuba to see if they enjoy it or would rather do something else. As a parent I believe in offering any or all experiences to kids in the hope that they find something they enjoy and will pursue. My oldest loves soccer, my youngest softball, my son Scuba and skiing, my red head loves to sing.

The 5000+ was an exaggeration (sarcasm) based on where I felt the conversation was headed that no one should be allowing anyone under any circumstances to enjoy scuba without an OW Certification and (more sarcasm coming - get ready) without lots of current experience... (aka Grandpa's lack of credentials)

I like to offer differing opinions for those that sit and read these boards and don't participate in the back and forth... Otherwise this board would be awfully bland and boring...

It is fine - I have no dog in the fight - we are hundreds of miles away and the chances of me happening into Tammy's shop is very slim... But this being the Internet - I offer my opinion as one that could be considered as a view - not right and not wrong but one to be considered when formulating an opinion for oneself.

The pendulum of safety versus risk is one that swings from side to side and takes a while to swing back - we are currently in one of those extreme swings and I feel it will be coming back at some point soon.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think it is fairly clear that Tammy is only doing what her shop expects. And her shop is probably fairly typical. That is, Scuba Shop / Scuba Police Station.

Can you imaging a car stopping at a gas station with a child not in a child seat and the station refusing to sell the driver gas??? And that is actually involves an illegal act rather than just not endorsed by some training agency.

Their shop, their rules. I would opt to spend my $$$ elsewhere. Not an attack on Tammy. Just a fairly common detractor of Scuba gear and training retail operations.

In your analogy, the gas station has no potential for liability in case of an incident. A better analogy would be this: "Can you imaging a a man sitting at a bar and asking the bartender for a drink and having the bartender refuse to serve him because he thinks he has had too many already?" And, yes, I can imagine that. Bars have been prosecuted for overserving patrons.

I used to be a classroom teacher. Let's say that when I was a teacher I was at a family gathering during the summer (when I was not officially working) in another state, and I saw my brother spank his child for misbehavior. Nothing too serious, I think. But let's say that spanking left a small bruise that was later observed while he was changing clothes at a public swimming pool, and it is reported. My brother gets taken in for child abuse, whether it is deserved or not. If someone knew I was present during that spanking and reported my presence to the police in my state, I could be arrested for failing to report that "abuse," and I would probably be fired from my teaching job. Sound extreme? It's the law.

Now, there is no similar law in this case, but does it strain credibility to think that if a child were to die, a resulting lawsuit would include the dive shop for knowingly providing the means for the actions that resulted in the child's death?

---------- Post added June 18th, 2015 at 10:47 AM ----------

Tammy said "Teaching" and she was wrong in that implication but that was her understanding of what Grandpa wanted to do. Playing with Scuba gear in a pool is not teaching someone how to dive. I did not teach my kids in my pool how to scuba - I allowed them to experience a fun and pleasant scuba activity under adult supervision. This is not earning them a spot for OW Certification - this is allowing them to dabble with Scuba to see if they enjoy it or would rather do something else.

I see, so if gramps had instead said, "I'm going to let uncertified and underage children play with this equipment in the pool without teaching them how to use it," it would have been much better and she would have cheerfully complied. Interesting.

 

[redacted]

In your analogy, the gas station has no potential for liability in case of an incident. A better analogy would be this: "Can you imaging a a man sitting at a bar and asking the bartender for a drink and having the bartender refuse to serve him because he thinks he has had too many already?" And, yes, I can imagine that. Bars have been prosecuted for overserving patrons.

I used to be a classroom teacher. Let's say that when I was a teacher I was at a family gathering during the summer (when I was not officially working) in another state, and I saw my brother spank his child for misbehavior. Nothing too serious, I think. But let's say that spanking left a small bruise that was later observed while he was changing clothes at a public swimming pool, and it is reported. My brother gets taken in for child abuse, whether it is deserved or not. If someone knew I was present during that spanking and reported my presence to the police in my state, I could be arrested for failing to report that "abuse," and I would probably be fired from my teaching job. Sound extreme? It's the law.

Now, there is no similar law in this case, but does it strain credibility to think that if a child were to die, a resulting lawsuit would include the dive shop for knowingly providing the means for the actions that resulted in the child's death?

What makes you think the liability of the scuba shop is any different than the liability of the gas station?

The bartender analogy does not work. The bartender has a legal requirement to cut off the drunks. And that is why bar are cited and prosecuted for violations. Similar to the child abuse analogy. The standard is set by the law, not by the police.

Scuba shop have no such legal requirements. They have met the "industry standard" requirement for the sale of gas when the check a C-card (or get a waiver for paintball use).

Why would a child's death in a pools accident be so different than a child's death in a car accident?