No SMB, no good

[dumpsterDiver]

I could get irritated by your entirely useless posts and make some snide comment like, "Once again, based on your comments, you demonstrate that you are not prepared to be an instructor," but I'll refrain.

I will, however, ask you to instead of only making disparaging comments, why not enlighten us as to what could have/ should have been done differently and/or better. The whole purpose of my original posts was to encourage comments about how to avoid situations like this and prevent them in the future. If all posters get for posting in this forum is deconstructive criticism, few will be willing to expose themselves to such unproductive comments which only gender strife. In consequence, all suffer.

I haven't seen much from you that has even attempted to do that, and you are supposed to be an instructor.

Sorry I am negative but your ignorance with regard to the effects of CO2 build up is scary. I guess all you really need to know is that you can not exert yourself or the "bad gasses" will make you feel bad. However, I honestly assume that someone who is going to 130 feet in cold dark water knows a little more about what can happen and why, if they have to rely upon physical strength to muscle their way out of a situation.

Your utter failure to predict the possibility of loosing the anchor line and your failure to make an effective plan to deal with it is scary. I want other people who are as similarly ignorant of likely outcomes to stay in "the shallow end of the pool". I'm glad you survived and I'm glad you tell your story, but I am hard pressed to find a lot of positive things to say about your dive.

Loosing your way, loosing your buddies and getting over exerted are all things that you should have mentally prepared for.

Let's see:

• You lost your buddies
• You lost your way and couldn't find the anchor line when you apparently travel much less distance than you had planned on doing.
• You failed to dive the plan that you intended to do.
• You failed to communicate well with the buddies when the dive plan seemed to be modified underwater.
• You over exerted yourself (although I'm not sure exactly why)
• You failed to consider what would happen if you got lost
• You failed to take a reel for a secondary upline.
• You apparently suffered pretty significant narcosis at a depth that was much less than your planned depth.
• You aparently were significantly impaired by narcosis and Co2 build up.
• Your buddies failed to follow a typical lost diver protocol (or was there one on this dive)

 

[Potapko]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for posting your story. I'll have to get up there to dive some of those wrecks with you when we get back to the Czech Republic.

Did a nice dive in Lake Superior the other day. May get to go again next week.

God bless,
Jeff

 

[sibermike7]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for posting your story. I'll have to get up there to dive some of those wrecks with you when we get back to the Czech Republic.

Did a nice dive in Lake Superior the other day. May get to go again next week.

God bless,
Jeff

Sure thing Jeff. There are a TON (well actually TONS and TONS) of wrecks here because of this location had ships from Germany, Finland, Sweden, Estonia, and Russia are traipsing around during WWII. Add to the mix bombers and mines and wallah, instant wrecks!

One of my favorites is Polaris/Raa. She is a wooden sailing ship that was built in the 1900's believe it or not and was sunk my a bomb that left her dis-masted with open seams but basically intact. She sunk and landed on her keel so she rests naturally. Due to the low salinity of the water and the colder temperatures with reduce the O2 present, she is in pristine condition. There are a lot of entry points on her as well and not a lot of hazards.

Where abouts on Superior did you dive and what was the attraction?

Let me know when you can swing by!

 

[sibermike7]

Sorry I am negative ...

No need to apologize for being negative, just offer constructive criticism with a decent tone. Most people know when the mess up. If they have admitted to messing up the last thing they need is someone railing on them for what they did! As an instructor I would think you would know that. If you have something to offer; I'm all ears. If you can say what could have been done better; dittos. If you just want to say, "Hey you messed up!" Take a number because I already said that!

In trying to describe for the sake of learning a incident that I was involved in, I may have made myself misunderstood in some ways. That is not my intention. Most divers know what it feels like to have to suck air from a reg rather than breathe from one that "breathes easy." Nevertheless, I was still taking deep breaths, just working for it.

if they have to rely upon physical strength to muscle their way out of a situation.

Did I give the impression that I believed that?

Your utter failure to predict the possibility of loosing the anchor line and your failure to make an effective plan to deal with it is scary.

Did I give the impression that we had never discussed and planned for losing the anchor line? My apologies; we had. I admitted to just getting lackadaisical about carrying my SMB. I admitted this to be inexcusable. I would not have been too worried usually because the current here is not great enough to be a concern. I was only concerned this time due to deteriorating weather conditions on the surface which could have caused me to surface well within reach of the boat, but out of sight.

I am hard pressed to find a lot of positive things to say about your dive.

Well, you and I agree on that point!

Loosing your way, loosing your buddies and getting over exerted are all things that you should have mentally prepared for.

I was. If I hadn't been, I would have been in a panic.

Let's see:

• You over exerted yourself (although I'm not sure exactly why) Did I say that? Working at a drawing a breath, yes. Overexerted?
• You failed to consider what would happen if you got lost. If you meant on the wreck, wrong. If you meant on the surface, true. I admitted that.
• You apparently suffered pretty significant narcosis at a depth that was much less than your planned depth. Now where did you get that? I noticed I was being affected, seems like I even wrote the word, "little". Hmmmm
• You aparently were significantly impaired by narcosis and Co2 build up. (Read above comments.)

It is amazing how things can get pretty twisted around in just a few short posts! Dumpster, why don't you provide some positive suggestions on how to improve a dive as an instructor should? Why don't you suggest remedies for these failings instead of just pointing out what was done wrong. I provided that in the OP!

You wrote that I failed to "consider' the possibility of losing the anchor line. Baloney! However HAD I failed to make this consideration, I would loved to have read a post that read something like this, "Mike, you failed to consider the possibility of losing the anchor line. What you should have done instead of what you did was... (insert your pearls of wisdom here).

THAT is what a good instructor would and SHOULD do. Honestly, DDiver, I am a little worried about YOU. Can you, DO you ever provide instruction or is the best you have simply railing on someone for messing up? I would love to hear your suggestions on how this dive could have been better and how future dives could be improved. I am all ears.

 

[sibermike7]

I would suggest that you take a real technical wreck course from a technical instructor. Not a PADI wreck course. You are engaging in dives that fall in this category and you would find the course both interesting and valuable to improve your skill set and safety.

John

That would be a great idea John, but I am not in a place (physically or otherwise) to do that right now. I dive because I enjoy it. Generally, we stay in shallower waters, but Bungsberg is an exception. About all we can dive here (in the Baltic) are wrecks. Just about all the instruction is exclusively PADI.

I was trained with both PADI and NAUI and realize that there is a difference. We spent 16 hours in the classroom and then 16 hours in the pool before ever seeing open water. We also learned and practiced CPR in the water. We ascended from 45' without gear after removing it all and drawing one breath. Then we had to descend and put it all back on. All this was just for "Basic Scuba Diver"!! So, I'm with you!

 

[DaleC]

Good thread Mike. Thanks for being "real" about your experience. Sometimes an experienced diver can help others by showing that, even they, can make mistakes. When we become human we also become approachable. The constructive critique is useful and I say just ignore the blatantly negative stuff.

I had a simular experience early on that changed my approach to diving. While, like yours, no one was hurt; there was a great potential for a negative outcome. After that I did some serious thinking and decided to take a step back from my head long rush to bigger and better things. I now approach recreational diving from a more technical perspective (we also dive in simular conditions to the ones you describe which make rec somewhat tech anyways). I stopped being a passive diver, following the lead of other "more experienced" divers and began taking a more active role in all aspects of my dives. I started "knowing" my gear/skills, learning the underlying mechanics of diving and participating in developing the dive plan. If I don't know the plan and/or feel comfortable with it, I don''t dive it.

I like Lynnes comments about the incident pit. Often times one small problem doesn't seem important but it compounds another small problem until there is the snowball effect. It's so easy to fall into. I notice it all the time (well, not ALL the time) when I am gearing up. Part of my situational awareness practice (particularily when soloing) is to go slow and address each issue as it arises. Stop-breathe-think-act. The downside of course is that one might have to call dives sooner/ more often but what the hell. Live to dive another day.

I wonder if the "narcosis" effect might have more to do with your general feeling of increased discomfort and conscious/subconcious attention to your WOB. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could comment on the effects of anxiety in bringing on narcosis (like)(particularily dark narc) conditions?

 

[Rick Murchison]

It sounds to me like the basic plan was an "out and in" - from the downline out to the props and back. The older I get the more lilely I am to run a guideline, even on familiar wrecks, in anything less than really good vis, especially if the route we have planned allows a return along the same path as the outbound leg. Even when making a circuit I may lay a short transect across our intended return path to make a bigger target of the ascent point.
This simplifies the lost buddy procedure too... for the purposes of "lost buddy," the lead can't be lost, as he has the reel attached to the ascent line If one of the other team members gets lost all he has to do is find the line and follow it - the team's on one end and the ascent point's on the other. If he goes the wrong way and ends up at the ascent point he just turns around until he meets the team (they're already returning looking for him, too...)
Y'all might want to think about using a guideline - I really like 'em.
---
"Nitrogen" narcosis is an unfortunate and sometimes inaccurate moniker. "Rapture of the Deep" or "Depth related narcosis" would probably be more accurate, as all gasses have some narcotic effect. For example, Helium and Hydrogen have practically none, Nitrogen and Oxygen have some; Argon and CO₂ have a lot. The only reason narcosis is usually due to nitrogen partial pressure is that it's the predominant gas in air and nitrox, and we're not usually overloaded with CO₂.
Rick

 

[b1gcountry]

4. Don't three-some in low or no vis.

I wouldn't necessary agree with this. I've done many many dives with threesomes in low vis. The trick to diving with a group in low vis is:
1. Talk about the plan and team positioning beforehand. Make sure the guy in the middle knows he's responsible for both the guy in front and the guy in back. The guy in front needs to make sure he checks up on the middle guy frequently in case the guy in back has a problem.

2. Carry a big honkin light.

Tom

 

[sibermike7]

I wouldn't necessary agree with this. I've done many many dives with threesomes in low vis. The trick to diving with a group in low vis is:
1. Talk about the plan and team positioning beforehand. Make sure the guy in the middle knows he's responsible for both the guy in front and the guy in back. The guy in front needs to make sure he checks up on the middle guy frequently in case the guy in back has a problem.

You're absolutely right. Better to have written, "Don't threesome unless you plan and prepare for it."

2. Carry a big honkin light.

Always do and did on this dive too. The problem with this can be suspended particles which reflect the light giving a "fogged out" appearance.

 

[sibermike7]

Y'all might want to think about using a guideline - I really like 'em.

Definitely something worth thinking about.