No knee skills for DM

[The Chairman]

exception SNSI, RAID

This might start a war, but NASE did it a few years before they did. It's why I went with them.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This might start a war, but NASE did it a few years before they did. It's why I went with them.

Fair enough. I'll add that to my list.

 

[The Chairman]

Fair enough. I'll add that to my list.

It's amazing, but when I first posted about no kneeling in class, I was accused of lying and was told that you can't do it that way. I want to say this was somewhere between 2005 and 2008 and he later became a big proponent of diving neutral. I was specifically asked how I taught reg recovery and frankly, I didn't (and don't) see a big difference especially since I teach using a long hose from the beginning. Meh. To this day he maintains I was being deceitful about it. That's OK. I just chalked it up to jealousy and kept teaching and kept improving.

FWIW, I really don't have a problem if classes are taught on their knees at the beginning if the students come out of it with fair trim and in control of their buoyancy. I just think it's quicker and more effective to never, ever introduce such a bad habit, only to have to break it later. Monkey see, monkey do. Instructors and anyone helping with a class should be able to do all skills neutrally and always set that example. If you take shortcuts, so will your students. Be the diver you want them to be.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

introduce such a bad habit, only to have to break it later.

That is the fundamental issue.

 

[The Chairman]

That is the fundamental issue.

Rule of primacy: the way your first learn to do something will be the way you do it when you're stressed.
Rule of recency: The last way you do something is also important.

Too often, when I lived in Key Largo, I saw divers kneel on the reef to clear a mask or make an adjustment. Stay off the reef! Teach them how to do it from the very beginning, and you don't have to worry about them reverting to kneeling when they get a bit stressed.

 

[TMHeimer]

It is an extremely frustrating conversation at times. After all, @boulderjohn, @Peter Guy and others published that article in Q2 of 2011 (almost 9 years ago), we just got to having two skills in IEs that if done NB, you can get a 5 yet you can still pass while on the knees. I passed my IE just over 4 years ago, and I was not yet aware of that article. I am disappointed that over 4 years after the article was published, none of it was incorporated into my IDC or IE. None of it. I'm also disappointed that the other mainstream agencies (exception SNSI, RAID) haven't grabbed onto that concept and required ITs to teach new instructors to teach NB/T and that all instructors teach that way. Do they all just sit on the sidelines and follow what PADI does? I'm hoping that RAID/SNSI get a lot of marketshare as a result and force the industry to follow suit.

I know a couple instructors who have never placed a student on their knees. If someone with zero experience as an instructor can do it, what excuse do the rest of us have? I think instructors rush to start on skills in the pool instead of beginning with comfort. The way I was weighting students, even the nervous ones were either comforted or distracted that they had my entire attention while I was giving them weights until they sank on exhale and could remain underwater. It was gradual yet still quick. And they just floated fairly horizontally in the shallow end of the pool, rising and falling with each breath, quite relaxed.



I once helped out an instructor with a class that was held in a small pool, so everyone was on the knees. The instructor had me demo UW scuba kit removal and replacement. I did it NB/T and it was monkey see, monkey do which was awesome. While the students all had great difficulty doing the skill off the bottom (it was their first one that they performed NB/T), they were able to complete the skill. With more practice, they would have become proficient.

So wherever you set the bar, students will work towards that. If they think that's normal what you are showing them, then there isn't the stress.

I feel a lot of instructors use on the knees as a crutch. In order to place students on their knees, you have to overweight them. When these instructors move to NB, do they reweight them? I doubt it. So now the students have to deal with extra gas in their BCD that will expand/contract with depth changes, adding to their load. I just shake my head at that.

Anyway, here's this skill being done by @custureri : . Please note he's doing this in the open ocean and is dealing with a bit of current.

Thanks for the video. It was new to me, as the only way I was taught was being vertical (and on the bottom, as mentioned), unbuckling stuff from top to bottom, left then right arm out. Reverse to don.
I'm wondering what amount of weight the diver has on-- belt & integrated? Since I have 24 pounds integrated would it be more difficult for me doing what he does on the video? The other 18 pounds is on my belt. Perhaps the 24 pounds in BC plus tank weight may cause me to go bottom up when holding the unit in front of me? I guess if the proper amount of air was in the BC after it was removed would balance the weight and keep me horizontal.

I guess I've had no interest in trying this as I can't think of a situation I'd have to other than when I'd do it at the bottom (entanglement) or on the surface (hand it up to crew). Maybe catastrophic equipment failure (one that might be fixed rather than ascending? --doubt it) or tangled mid water in a fishing trawler's net? Can you think of any? Not that it's important, since this thread is about buoyancy and kneeling, not each skill.

 

[TMHeimer]

It's amazing, but when I first posted about no kneeling in class, I was accused of lying and was told that you can't do it that way. I want to say this was somewhere between 2005 and 2008 and he later became a big proponent of diving neutral. I was specifically asked how I taught reg recovery and frankly, I didn't (and don't) see a big difference especially since I teach using a long hose from the beginning. Meh. To this day he maintains I was being deceitful about it. That's OK. I just chalked it up to jealousy and kept teaching and kept improving.

FWIW, I really don't have a problem if classes are taught on their knees at the beginning if the students come out of it with fair trim and in control of their buoyancy. I just think it's quicker and more effective to never, ever introduce such a bad habit, only to have to break it later. Monkey see, monkey do. Instructors and anyone helping with a class should be able to do all skills neutrally and always set that example. If you take shortcuts, so will your students. Be the diver you want them to be.

I don't think we disagree on the knee/NB thing. I'm beating a dead horse again in saying that I think the reason all of us that were taught on knees came out fine was because we were comfortable in water to begin with and dived regularly right away. Using the LPI in short bursts isn't rocket science that should take 20 dives to sort out. But yeah, not everyone was like us, so it makes sense to teach those skills neutrally from the start. If "motor muscle memory" makes someone go to the bottom to clear a mask, there probably was a more basic underlying problem. But, more than one on this thread has said they've seen this often.

 

[MichaelMc]

I'm wondering what amount of weight the diver has on-- belt & integrated? Since I have 24 pounds integrated would it be more difficult for me doing what he does on the video? The other 18 pounds is on my belt. Perhaps the 24 pounds in BC plus tank weight may cause me to go bottom up when holding the unit in front of me? I guess if the proper amount of air was in the BC after it was removed would balance the weight and keep me horizontal.

Yes, custureri seems to have no weight on body nor extra on the rig. In ocean I've got 12 lb. on body, and rig + tank is net 6 lb negative (if it were at ~500psi).

Nothing says you have to hold the rig 2' in front of you. Just not lose control of body position (nor buoyancy and depth, and not flail about). Holding the rig below you works well in a frog hover with a negative rig. Three of us did this (plus mask/fins R/R) mid water in the pool, as part of a full remove/replace of all but weight belts, suits, and boots (as staff), holding depths in a three person formation. Though our pool rigs were not as negative as your rig. Depth ~7', suits 10/5 or 6/3 ish.

In the ocean my rig and I are neutral enough that I can hold it 'below and in front' of me with valves aligned front/back with chest, tanks extending forward. If I put the rig down, I'm a hair light, but can stay down and horizontal if I lightly hold the valve. The weight on the rig is the SS plate plus lead at the plate top and shoulders. So stability off is even a bit better than on, as it shifts to below me but does not change head/toe trim much. My tanks are twin AL40s.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don't think we disagree on the knee/NB thing. I'm beating a dead horse again in saying that I think the reason all of us that were taught on knees came out fine was because we were comfortable in water to begin with and dived regularly right away. Using the LPI in short bursts isn't rocket science that should take 20 dives to sort out. But yeah, not everyone was like us, so it makes sense to teach those skills neutrally from the start. If "motor muscle memory" makes someone go to the bottom to clear a mask, there probably was a more basic underlying problem. But, more than one on this thread has said they've seen this often.

Some day I'll put together a video of this same skill, but in the Puget Sound. I'll have the amount of weight necessary to trim out (I really like a weight belt with a BP/W and Deep 6 Eddy fins). I just won't release the first take . But in all seriousness, it is my intent to have a complete demo video for all skills, just performing them in open water.

Yes we were taught on the knees, and it impeded our progress. I took fundies after 380 dives. One of my students completed T1 after 2 years/230 dives. I had a small part in that. But the key is establishing a solid foundation, and students, if they put in the work, can improve their abilities quite quickly. But you cannot teach them bad habits that they had to break. I know after taking fundies at 380 dives, it was quite painful

 

[TMHeimer]

Some day I'll put together a video of this same skill, but in the Puget Sound. I'll have the amount of weight necessary to trim out (I really like a weight belt with a BP/W and Deep 6 Eddy fins). I just won't release the first take . But in all seriousness, it is my intent to have a complete demo video for all skills, just performing them in open water.

Yes we were taught on the knees, and it impeded our progress. I took fundies after 380 dives. One of my students completed T1 after 2 years/230 dives. I had a small part in that. But the key is establishing a solid foundation, and students, if they put in the work, can improve their abilities quite quickly. But you cannot teach them bad habits that they had to break. I know after taking fundies at 380 dives, it was quite painful

Again beating a dead horse, but how did the knee thing impede your progress? I would assume you had to do a lot of work to get your buoyancy skills where they would have been had you been taught neutrally? How long did that take?