No jacket required~ BP setup help

[raybo]

Please don’t turn this into a BP v. jacket thread. It’s too late. I’ve already made up my mind. NO Jacket required!

OK. Here I go. Mo2vation isn’t the only one to get assimilated. This may turn into a somewhat lengthy post, but I’ll try to break it out to make it easy to respond to. Been thinking about making the switch for a while~ like as soon as I heard about it.

Went to do an Ice Specialty O/W a couple of weekends ago, and some things happened that have prompted me to move forward with getting the switch completely done.

I currently dive a Genesis Recon, which I guess is about the same thing as a Sherwood Avid. I like it, but after having been introduced to the DIR configuration here on the board, the BP/Wing thing makes a lot of sense, for a lot of reasons. I’m a fairly analytical kind of guy, and capable of wading through the dribble & gleaning the worthwhile info from the diatribe.

I know the answers to all my question will already have been provided, but I’m asking for your input specific to my questions so that I have just one thread to come back to for reference.

First how I dive now & expect to dive:

PADI AO/W, with Nitrox, Ice, Drysuit, S&R, Deep, & Altitude Specialties, and Rescue. There’s a DIR-F class happening over Easter weekend at a close location that I want to try to attend, but over Easter, not sure if I can swing it. Found an IANTD Advanced Nitrox/Deco instructor that may be able to hold a class locally as well. Looks like there may be enough local interest in that to get it done. Not sure I’m really interested in DM/Instructor, but may go that route for free fills and a reason to get in the water. I had the same dilemma with skiing~ do I want to make my recreation a job?

Currently I dive single Al80s, and previously mostly in warm water locations with wife & daughter. Have started diving locally more. Will try to do most of it early in the year and over the winter when algae blooming isn’t such an issue. So that means mostly cold, and usually low viz.

Local waters are mostly reservoirs, and a few spring fed sinkholes. Although I’m sure it wouldn’t be terribly exciting for most, I expect the biggest activity to be bottom combing for junk to become a pretty good chunk of my local diving. I expect some S&R of lost items, and maybe some marina repair to be in the mix as well. Eventually, Wreck/Cave certs may be in the offing, although that will entail travel (or maybe just moving!).

Already swapped out to a long hose. Seemed right intuitively, and felt right from the first time I wrapped it around my head. Only issue is trying to unbolt it with 7mm 3~finger mitts. Practice I guess. Bought a set of Jets with springs to replace my TUSA zooms. Like the springs. Have yet to form an opinion one way or the other on the fins, though. Haven’t had a chance to use both of them on the same trip yet to really do a comparison.

I’ve only seen one BP/Wing setup in person, and it was a full Halcyon Pioneer setup, so a little help would be appreciated, and your indulgence if some of the question/comments seem elementary or “stupid” would be appreciated.

So here are my questions regarding the balance of the switch:

Back Plate:

I’m looking at Gary’s BP. He was on vacation last time I checked, but think he may be back. I’ve seen posts about FredT, and one other manufacturer I can’t remember. I know FredT has a hand hole, but other than that, any other significant difference, pro or con? Somebody posted a link/picture to another brand, but the number of holes on it’s perimeter seemed to be significantly less than FredT’s or Gary’s. Comments?

STA v Double set up:

Haven’t decided for sure, but if I’m going to do this, I’m likely to go ahead and set it up for doubles, but have some questions regarding both configurations.

The Halcyon single setup I saw just had the nylon straps to hold the tank. From what I’ve read, there’s a channel STA available that adds 4-5#. Anyone have any experience as to whether this channel STA is interchangeable between plates? I have a drill press, used to work in a Steel Fab shop, so a little home modification isn’t an issue. I saw Uncle Pug’s post/picture of his keel weight, and am already thinking about that. Should I not get the channel STA, and use the keel weight instead, is there an issue with the tank straps for a single? Again, having not seen these in person, I’m just going on what I see on the web, and sometimes a little difficult to really tell what’s going on.

Double tank setup:

Setting up a single is pretty much a no-brainer, so here are my questions on the doubles. First tank size/material. I figure I’m going to dive dry almost all the time with this setup in a 7mm Neoprene. Currently I need about 24# ~ 26# (at 5000 ft elevation in fresh water. I seem to need to have to add a pound or two as I go up from there in altitude, as would be expected). If/when I dive warm/wet, I need 10# ~ 12# in what I wear, so I figure I’ll set the BP with a keel weight to right around that.

So that leaves about 14# to make up. From what I’ve seen, looks like the LP steels, and AL tanks run from a little negative full and zero to 3-5# positive empty, while the HP steel run -10# full, and stay -5# or so empty. So, if I use HP steel, that puts me almost neutral (+/-4# at most, I figure, depending on other gear) with BP/Keel weight & tank weight. At the surface. With neoprene compression, it’s going to go pretty negative at depth.

Comments &suggestions about this setup and safety issues with surplus/emergency buoyancy issues?

Manifolds, valves, regs.

This in area that I have very little experience with for setting up doubles. Haven’t really done much research yet, but looking at an OMS manifold with Isolator (http://www.omsdive.com/valves.html#M-SPEC) Any comments pro or con on these? Suggestions of an alternate manufacturer/source?

This may seem like stupid question, but I’ve never witnessed the process. How do you fill these? You just leave them hooked up to the plate and take them in & have them filled? How do you deal with multiple dives on a boat or site with no fill station?

Currently, I’m using (I know what most of you think about them, but they’ve been very good to me so far) a Dacor Fury Adj. and a Viper Octo with DIN/yoke adaptor 1st stage. If I understand it “right”, with the double, I need to get a second first stage for the second post for full isolation of the two 2nd stages. Will probably look at a different reg when the diving demands it, this setup fails or gives me problems, or I run across a screaming deal. I dove these regs under the ice a couple weeks ago, and even though it’s a “cheap” setup, no free flow, no problems. Wasn’t real deep, but a lot of much more expensive equipment on the site did have problems, with a lot of grumbling about it as well. -22 F air Saturday morning at 9000 ft elevation wasn’t real equipment friendly.

Finally the wing. Don’t know about the wing itself, and whether it’s interchangeable or not ,but saw a Dive Rite transpac on this ice trip and knew that setup was NOT for me. So unless I’m missing something, looks like Halcyon. Explorer with 55# lift? Is there really that much difference in profile between the 40 & 55? And if I get an explorer wing, any really significant issue with it if I take it single diving on vacation where I’d be diving mostly single AL80 rentals?

Thanks in advance for any input, suggestions and comments

Raybo

 

[Scubaroo]

Go to www.divers-supply.com for the Sea Elite 300 bar DIN manifold. Cheaper than OMS, but high quality. They've been discussed extensively on this board. If you have your own regs, there's no need to get a 200 bar DIN/yoke convertable manifold - who's going to be putting yoke regs on it?

Not sure what buoyancy figures you've been looking at - but LP tanks will be either negative or neutral at the end of the dive, depending on size/manufacturer.

 

[Wendy]

I think its best to have 2 wings, one for doubles and one for singles. The explorer wing will be too big for a single tank.

Also diving steel doubles in a wetsuit isn't a great idea in open water. You wouldn't have any redundant bouyancy.

 

[WreckWriter]

Wendy is definately right about the wings. You can't use a 55 Explorer with a single 80, not properly anyway. The wing will taco up so high the sides will be touching each other on top of your tank. It will be unstable and a total rule 6 violation (in other words it will look really silly).

As for steels in a wetsuit, that's a more personal choice in my opinion but I can't really say I recommend it unless you're very experienced. But as I read your post you said you'll be dry anyway.

If you went to double LP 104s you could probably lose the weightbelt, at least almost all of it. LP 104s are negative empty, very negative full. They're very heavy out of water though.

As for a manifold, go with Sea Elite or Halcyon.

If go double steels, get a 55 Explorer, if double aluminum, 40 Explorer.

WW

 

[raybo]

Wendy once bubbled...

Also diving steel doubles in a wetsuit isn't a great idea in open water. You wouldn't have any redundant bouyancy.

Slim chance of that. If I'm in warm water, it's probably going to be on vacation, with 3mm FJ/Shorty, rented single AL80s. Hauling steel tanks on a plane isn't really an option. Maybe I'll keep my recon for that. It is pretty comfortable and stable with a single AL80. Of course, compared to a jacket, what do you expect?

Scubaroo once bubbled....

If you have your own regs, there's no need to get a 200 bar DIN/yoke convertable manifold - who's going to be putting yoke regs on it?

MY first stage is a 300 bar, so I'll probably try to stick with that as much as I can. As for who'll set it up? Probably me with some input/oversight with one of a couple people I am acquainted with that have some experience with doubles.

 

[metridium]

Scubaroo wrote...
Go to www.divers-supply.com for the Sea Elite 300 bar DIN manifold.

Ditto for Highland Mills bands, last I checked. They weren't on the website then, nor are they now, so you'll have to call.

Be sure to specify O2 ready manifold and valves when you order.

 

[Scubaroo]

raybo once bubbled...
As for who'll set it up?

Sorry, what I meant was the OMS manifold is a 200 bar DIN/yoke convertable manifold - if you were leaning towards this manifold because of the option to convert it between DIN and yoke, who would be using yoke regulators on the manifold, if you already own (or are about to get) your own DIN regulators - 300 bar DIN would be a better choice.

OMS is bringing out their own 300 bar barrel style manifold - but I would avoid it like the plague - I just bought a 40cf tank, which came with a generic 200 bar DIN K valve that looks exactly like the valves used in the new OMS manifold - the supposedly convertable DIN/yoke valve WON'T let a yoke fit over it (the valve head is too fat), and even better, it came with a PLASTIC dip tube with some wierd thread, and the LDS wasn't able to find a metal dip tube in their entire repair shop that would fit it! Plus the valve looks like it has a manufacturing defect in the oriface - almost like extra chrome "spilt" in there or something. For now I'll using it as a stage, but will replace it with a new Thermo valve when I get it O2 cleaned.

 

[raybo]

metridium once bubbled...

Be sure to specify O2 ready manifold and valves when you order.

Yeah, one of the first thing I verify when I order anything. Was looking at getting the bands with the plate & harness form Gary if I go that route. Seemed pretty reasonably priced, and most of the posts I've seen says he good to work with.

Wreck Writer once bubbled....

If you went to double LP 104s you could probably lose the weightbelt, at least almost all of it. LP 104s are negative empty, very negative full. They're very heavy out of water though.

I'm figuring on trying to set it up so I have a wieght belt that I can ditch at depth for safety, but not too much. I hate that thing. That's why I went with a weight integrated back inflate. It was supposed to have a CQR (tm) integrated system, But it obviously wasn't real CQR though, because one of the pockets is sitting at the bottom of an ice covered lake. Headed to pick up its replacement this afternoon if they got it. That was the final straw.

 

[raybo]

Scubaroo once bubbled....

if you already own (or are about to get) your own DIN regulators - 300 bar DIN would be a better choice

The reg first stage is a 300 bar DIN, and it came with the yoke adapter. Whatever I buy will most likely be DIN equipped. The yoke adapter can be used with the standard K valve found just about everywhere. Makes it easy to go on vacation.

 

[WreckWriter]

raybo once bubbled...
I'm figuring on trying to set it up so I have a wieght belt that I can ditch at depth for safety, but not too much.

The problem with that is that if it's not much then dropping it doesn't do much either! I try to keep mine as balanced as possible, diving with as little weight as I can, none of it is ditchable though as I use a V-weight if I use anything at all.

I guess you just have to figure out what works best for your own diving. If you end up with double 104s you probably won't need any extra weight at all.

WW