No certificate

[MikeFerrara]

To continue my arguement...

Do a search. How many times and by how many people has it been stated that the agency doesn't matter and it's the instructor that's important? BTW, I'm one of the few people that I know of that doesn't agree with that statement. However, since most do seem to agree, I'll ask a question. If the agency doesn't matter, why should we bother with them in the first place? Why should either the student or the instructor pay them? I submit that the only valid reason is beacause they have put themselves in a market position to regulate access for both the diver and the instructor.

So, we all know that if we are going to buy breathing gas at dive shops and dive at resorts we will need to pay the agency for access. If we are to survive and enjoy doing it we'll need to be adequately prepared. The two may very well happen independantly of one another. What's the real value of the "card" for those in a position where they already have free access? Are there effective ways to prepare and train that are independant of the agencies? Do the recreational agencies even offer any real guarantee of preperation or do they primarily offer access? Certainly we may have a good instructor who is paying an agency but I don't see where it's a given. What if that good instructor stops sending money to that agency? Is he still a good instructor? Was it the agency that made him/her a good instructor in the first place? IME, I would say it wasn't and would be very reluctant to give the agency any credit at all. The agency doesn't matter, remember? I think it's common in diving for one to learn to do something and then to go purchase a card for access...or more importantly, to first purchase the card for access and then realize that they don't really know how to do it and have to go looking for ways to really train and prepare. I've been through both but the later is a real pain. If the premis that certification was important, both should result in disaster. I don't have anything other than my own observations to back it up but I think the later case causes the most problems. Maybe the agency really doesn't matter.

 

[vkalia]

If the agency doesn't matter, why should we bother with them in the first place? Why should either the student or the instructor pay them?

Quality control. You are less likely to get total knobs if you have some kind of a vetting/QC process, regardless of what you think of its particular merits.

Just b/c being with an agency doesnt *guarantee* a good instructor doesnt mean that it doesnt significantly increase your chances of getting a somewhat competent course. It doesnt have to be an extreme "either-or" scenario (ie, 100% guarantee or zero-benefit) - there is plenty of middle ground.

V.

 

[Kim]

Is this guy for real, I sure hope he's a Troll, because the alternative is too terrifying to consider.

Well...maybe he just doesn't know what he doesn't know. If he's anyway serious then I hope when he comes back and reads his threads that he understands it's not quite all as straightforward as he's imagining. Only a complete fool would go diving without learning what's involved from someone who a) knows, and b) can teach it properly. Of course someone sometime pioneered the whole thing and taught themselves to dive...but a lot of the pioneers killed themselves as well while building all we know today. With modern knowledge and available instructors it's really unnecessary to try and re-invent the wheel (with the associated costs!!!). Sure you can buy the gear...just like cars, airplanes or whatever. Whether you can use them safely is something else altogether.

 

[Santa]

Whenever I read a post like this I can't help thinking "someones out chumming". Hope that's the reason our Fin (fluke?) is being such a quiet boy.

The alternitives are kinda depressing.

 

[SharkRider]

NO... It is not illegal. There is no law requiring certification in the USA...

 

[SharkRider]

Realistically, The only diver who shouldn't be apprehensive in zero viz is a cave trained diver wearing doubles.
To save time and nasty flames, there is a difference between "apprehensive" (being alert) and "screaming panic" (way bad).



WHAT?
Around here, everyone is comfortable diving in ZERO - Limited VIS. This is what diving is here every day. We say, if you learn to dive here... you can dive anywhere in the world. Every open water student does there training and cert dives in water with less than 15 feet of vis... most in water with less than 7 feet of vis and some in water with less than 2 feet of vis.

Only cave divers should be comfortable? I think you've got your head up your keister.... that is some low vis... and probably why you can't see the light!

 

[dgiese01]

Diving is like anything else in life. Doing it and doing it correctly are not necessarily the same. On the surface (no pun intended) diving seems very simple. You put some gear on and breath through a hose. Big deal. What idiot can't do that? There is more to it than that. Take the course. It's worth it.

 

[Tony "D"]

OK, I'll bite. My last major certification was before I went to medical school so I may not have been paying the same sort of attention, and I might have skipped the lipnoid class to go to the beach or something. What's lipnoid pneumonia (or lipnoid anything else, for that matter)?

Lipnoin Pneumonia is oil coating on the lungs from a compressor that wasn't maintained properly, or filters not changed on a regular basis. This allows a blow by of oil vapors into the final breathing air.

 

[Tony "D"]

Hehe, Tony, you must have one heck of a course! The only reason I know what those items are is because in a prior life, I was paramedic. Even Basic EMT's might get lost with some of those even though they shouldn't.

Yes I do teach a very strict class, and require the knowledge of all mentioned. Some say we over teach, if you think there is such a thing. However, no matter if it's an open water course or I'm teaching a cave course. The basics never change, and if your taught right from the start, you'll understand more and be ready for advanced training. Some say it scares students, "GOOD" at least they know what can happen if their not in control and careful.

Tony "D"

 

[MikeFerrara]

Quality control. You are less likely to get total knobs if you have some kind of a vetting/QC process, regardless of what you think of its particular merits.

The standards of at least some agencies actually insure that you'll have noobs for instructors. In fact, the agency counts on it.

Just b/c being with an agency doesnt *guarantee* a good instructor doesnt mean that it doesnt significantly increase your chances of getting a somewhat competent course. It doesnt have to be an extreme "either-or" scenario (ie, 100% guarantee or zero-benefit) - there is plenty of middle ground.

V.

The training stadards don't even ask instructors for a competent course. The standards are , in themselves, a prime example of incompetence, IMO. If you want me to pay the agency, I want evedence that there is benefite. The burden of proof lies with the seller rather than with me. Take your middle ground and use it to pay your kids way through colledge. I'm not interested in purchasing any middle ground.

Agencies know tourism and marketing. I don't have any reason to believe that they know anything about diving.